Good read on ILMOR

[bturner2]

While the Ilmor's certainly do seem to have design features that are advanced and the obvious political connection between a common owner is in place, Mark Twain's quote "the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated" comes to mind. Indmar's been making a quality product for a long time and as Jim states it's been a pretty solid package. And at a decent price.

Despite the Ilmor cheer leading no one really knows how these engines will hold up under use from the vast number of everyday customers. I'm not saying they won't be absolutely great, just that I probably wouldn't want one the first year they hit the market.

I still remember when OMC came out with the Cobra outdrive. It was made of superior materials, had advance features and thousands of hours of factory testing. They ended being a very good product but not without flaws that didn't show up until they got in consumer's hands.

As to HP, why not advertise? I've seen dyno sheets for the RTP and the MCX. Other engine builders like Roush, Keith Black and Shelby post their numbers. Unless I'm missing something why wouldn't you answer a customer's question about a product they want to purchase from you? Would you buy a Mustang GT or a Camaro SS without knowing the HP of the engine option you were buying?

[MCwake]

Competition may be good for boat owners. Since Penske owns Ilmor and MC, I doubt Malibu, Nautique, Supra/Moomba or any other manufacturer will be rushing out to buy engines from Ilmor.

Penske doesn't own Mastercraft. Wayzata Investment Partners, a Minneapolis-based investment firm ownes Mastercraft Boat Company. The firm focuses its investments in the distressed markets, typically in the debt securities and bank debt of distressed companies, which are in bankruptcy or undergoing financial restructuring or reorganization.

Good luck to Mastercraft & Ilmor!

[broncotw]

I have had several Indmar engines and never had a serious problem.... I totally agree with Jim’s assessment “Indmar being a solid option" for MasterCraft owners...

Currently, I am on my second MCX and I am not sure really how much better an Ilmore engine could be.... I mean really, the MCX starts every time with a half turn of the key and almost pulls my arms out of my shoulder sockets upon starting…. The MCX also gets me to the speed I want to be at very quickly (I ski at 36mph)….. What would be the ultimate goal -- to actually pull my arms out of their sockets? Don't get me wrong, I love big power and HP but really I have no reason to go faster than 43mph (I have not done much barefooting but I would guess this would be close to what they would need for top speed). If I wanted to go faster I would invest in a boat built for speed.... I guess as technology improves so will the engines – but really – how much better can they get? Seems to me the technology in inboards engines has kind of peaked… I would like to see the technology tackle issues such as better fuel consumption and improving the wakes these boats produce (bigger for wake boarders and smaller for the slalom skiers).

So, I guess my question is this: Why change? If Indmar has a great history of building engines which are solid in performance and reliability, and can be sold MUCH cheaper than the Ilmore engines -- what's the advantage of changing (for the customer and MasterCraft)?

[vision]

I have had several Indmar engines and never had a serious problem.... I totally agree with Jim’s assessment “Indmar being a solid option" for MasterCraft owners...

Currently, I am on my second MCX and I am not sure really how much better an Ilmore engine could be.... I mean really, the MCX starts every time with a half turn of the key and almost pulls my arms out of my shoulder sockets upon starting…. The MCX also gets me to the speed I want to be at very quickly (I ski at 36mph)….. What would be the ultimate goal -- to actually pull my arms out of their sockets? Don't get me wrong, I love big power and HP but really I have no reason to go faster than 43mph (I have not done much barefooting but I would guess this would be close to what they would need for top speed). If I wanted to go faster I would invest in a boat built for speed.... I guess as technology improves so will the engines – but really – how much better can they get? Seems to me the technology in inboards engines has kind of peaked… I would like to see the technology tackle issues such as better fuel consumption and improving the wakes these boats produce (bigger for wake boarders and smaller for the slalom skiers).

So, I guess my question is this: Why change? If Indmar has a great history of building engines which are solid in performance and reliability, and can be sold MUCH cheaper than the Ilmore engines -- what's the advantage of changing (for the customer and MasterCraft)?

I second the comment that the MCX is a good and reliable engine.

I do think there is better fuel efficiency and more power to be had from the 5.7 engine. Whether it is cost effective to pursue the engine modifications required to improve the engine is another story. But I think having additional competition for Indmar will make an already good engine builder even better.

[rgardjr1]

Penske doesn't own Mastercraft. Wayzata Investment Partners, a Minneapolis-based investment firm ownes Mastercraft Boat Company.

Unless they bought Penske out he still owns a percentage of Mastercraft-just not as large a percentage as Wayzata ...

So, I guess my question is this: Why change? If Indmar has a great history of building engines which are solid in performance and reliability, and can be sold MUCH cheaper than the Ilmore engines -- what's the advantage of changing (for the customer and MasterCraft)?

Say you own a company that makes and sells bread. You make a certain amount of money based on how many loafs of bread you sell.

Now say you own a company that makes bread and a company that makes flour. If your flour company can make enough flour to fully supply 100% of your bread company's needs-would you want to let another company sell flour to your bread company? Wouldn't you rather make money on both the flour and bread?

[BIGBADBLUE]

OK, say you have a person at your front door with a pizza box in his hand. What would you call him?

An Ohio State graduate.

Go Blue!!!

[broncotw]

Good stuff BIGBADBLUE! I agree! Go Wolverines!!!

[duckguy]

It is certainly usual and customary for many TT members being resistant to change. Why would I want this "Windows?" I can operate DOS just fine, I cant imagine anything better."

[romli]

OK, say you have a person at your front door with a pizza box in his hand. What would you call him?

An Ohio State graduate.

Go Blue!!!

Really!?!?

Here's some non-fiction:

1 & 8 vs. OSU since 2001 w/ 4 losses at the Big House
99th ranked defense in the country
4 of 13 field goal kicking
3 year NCAA probation for coaching violations
"Head Coach" admittedly contributes just $0.02 to defense
No wins over past 3 seasons against teams w/ more than 1 game over 0.500 record

If you've been in a coma or otherwise incapacitated for the past few years I sincerely apologize. Enjoy the game tomorrow, last week was a hoot!

-Badger Alum & Fan

[BIGBADBLUE]

Really!?!?

Here's some non-fiction:

1 & 8 vs. OSU since 2001 w/ 4 losses at the Big House
99th ranked defense in the country
4 of 13 field goal kicking
3 year NCAA probation for coaching violations
"Head Coach" admittedly contributes just $0.02 to defense
No wins over past 3 seasons against teams w/ more than 1 game over 0.500 record

If you've been in a coma or otherwise incapacitated for the past few years I sincerely apologize. Enjoy the game tomorrow, last week was a hoot!

-Badger Alum & Fan

I was simply conveying a story in a funny manner that has a lot of truth. It is called a joke. All your facts are correct but want to know one that I find even better?

What is the #11th most lopsided rivalries is the history of football? Michigan is 61 games over .500 when playing WISCONSIN or a .795 winning percentage.

The funnier thing is that remember 2008? Ouch that hurts even worse to get beat by a 3-9 team coached by a crook.

The even funnier thing is that we will fire our coach and return to being a championship team. When was the last time Wisconsin won a national championship?

How is that UW basketball team doing after UNLV?

Now - Lets get back to the task at hand ... making fun of OSU people because when we get dominated on Saturday I will have to shut my pie hole.

Anyone know what Big ten school has the lowest ACT, SAT and incoming freshman GPA scores? You guessed it. OSU!!!!

[BIGBADBLUE]

Sorry for the thread jack ... back to Ilmor

What is the technology difference between the 5.7 and 6.0 Ilmor. Their website says the 6.0 and 6.2 are technologically advance. How? You can tell I am slow and not an engine guy. I am deciding between and 6.0 and 5.7 in my 14V. I understand the torque and HP difference but are their technical differences between them?

[redline]

Here's the deal.

Penske does not own ANY part of MasterCraft any more.

For years, the guys at MasterCraft have tried to set their boats apart in whatever way they could. One of the challenges in the boat biz is the limited supply of vendors. Simply a boat company designs the boat. Period. Almost every component is sourced out, from the gel to the resin to the windshields, etc. etc. With a very small pool of suppliers, it becomes difficult to separate one from the crowd. MC learned that lesson big time with their tower supplier in Tennessee. So instead of "staying the course" they took a big, but calculated risk with this incredible engineer from Chicago. Long story short, they now have a supplier that ONLY supplies AND designs parts (just about every aluminum component on the boat). That relationship has seasoned and at it's peak, Gere Marie was shipping 112,000 parts a week to MC. They shipped zero to every other inboard company, even though the calls for parts and towers are still coming in. Look at the result. Instead of me-too grab rails, tower racks, gauge bezels, your MasterCraft has it's own identity unique to the industry. For those of you owning and older MC, you should send these guys a Christmas card for helping your boat better hold it's value.

To the engines, sorry for the big intro..The decision to move on to Ilmor is rooted in the Company's DNA. They don't sit still, they don't "stay the course" and they know darn well that the majority of owners and to-be owners expect this after 40+ years.

Here's what we have right now with Ilmor.

1) A 100% dedicated factory to the production of MasterCraft engines.
2) Out of the gate. 3 production engines, CARB certified and faster than the comparable Indmar. (Side by side tests have been performed at MasterCraft and in Colorado at elevation). From the ground up, a catalyzed exhaust system and a very, very accurate horsepower rating. Yes, the horsepower is in plain sight, you just have to know where to look.
3) A depth of engineering that the marine industry has NEVER seen. Know this folks, the entire marine industry takes about 12 days of GM's engine production. 12 Days! Not the biggest blip on the radar. That's why Ford and Dodge won't even look at us.
4) MasterCraft now has the freedom to work with the engineers in Detroit (HQ for Ilmor) and tap into a knowledge base that, again the marine industry has never seen.
5) The dealers got to experience their dealer meeting at the Penske race facility. (Nope, this means nothing to you guys, but OMG was that an experience of a lifetime even if one was not a race fan)
6) The demands of today's inboard customer are evolving quickly and our "caring" EPA is doing everything it can to limit the very power we need for our fun. Powertrain is going to be a big deal in the next 5 to 10 years as limits from Washington reign down.

Folks, as a dealer, we've been very happy with Indmar. Their engines have served the MC community well, as well as many of MC's competitors. We are excited to open a new chapter in powertrain and look forward to realizing some of the benefits that racing community experiences each weekend at the track.

Paul Vitucci
Redline Watersports

[rgardjr1]

Here's the deal.
Paul Vitucci
Redline Watersports

Thanks for the insight!

[romli]

Sorry for the thread jack ... back to Ilmor

What is the technology difference between the 5.7 and 6.0 Ilmor. Their website says the 6.0 and 6.2 are technologically advance. How? You can tell I am slow and not an engine guy. I am deciding between and 6.0 and 5.7 in my 14V. I understand the torque and HP difference but are their technical differences between them?

The 5.7L is a technological dinosaur compared to the 6.0L & 6.2L. It's a Gen I architecture that went out of (automotive/truck) production in 1999. On the other hand the Gen IV 6.0L L96 is currently in production in the Suburban, Silverado HD, Sierra HD & Yukon XL. It has aluminum heads and VVT. The all aluminum Gen IV 6.2L LS3 is currently offered in the Camaro SS and Corvette Coupe/Convertible/Grand Sport.

Think of the advancement in computers over the last 20 years. Current production engines have been developed with much more sophisticated Computational Fluid Dynamics, Finite Element Analysis and Statistical Process Control than all previous generations.

[[email protected]]

Think of the advancement in computers over the last 20 years. Current production engines have been developed with much more sophisticated Computational Fluid Dynamics, Finite Element Analysis and Statistical Process Control than all previous generations.

Ya and new and improved muffler bearings, upgraded flux capacitors and more powerful
dew- hickeys!!!


ILMOR is impressive. INDMAR has been a constant and has helped drive MC forward over the last 25 years. MC will set itself apart from the others like they always have and will. As a dealer we have opened our doors to ILMOR but certainly will maintain our relationship with INDMAR. They have been and will always be an asset to our dealership

[email protected]