Thoughts on 2006 XStar Stereo Upgrade

[BrushyCreekXS]

Ok, since the 16pin connector speaker harness vs. the amp speaker wire bundle was resolved in the parallel thread I brought the final options for new system back to this thread. Here seems like to be the most probable options. Would like to hear what you think.

Replace current Clarion CMD4 HU likely with the Clarion M608 and possibly new wired remote...could get 6/8 pin DIN adapter and use existing wired remote with no LCD support...would likely just run new in I/F and replace remote. The M608 has 4 zone capability so I could wire them with the bow, cockpit and towers all on different zones...could decide whether to put the subs on a zone or just added to the cockpit zone.

M800/8 = 100 W x 8 @ 2 Ω / 75 W x 8 @ 4 Ω - 14.4V
My math tells me that two speakers wired in parallel thus being a 2 Ω load driven by one channel of the amp, those two speakers would be getting ~45 - 55W for each speaker vs. 75W wired as a single 4 Ω...and the spec says 200W for bridged output of two channels.

One option would be to use the M800/8 and run the two bow speakers with Ch 1 -2 both at 4Ω to the amp per channel. Then run two of the cockpit speakers using Ch 3 and the other two using Ch 4 both sets in parallel as a 2 Ω load.

Could then use Ch 7 and 8 to drive the towers with each getting a channel and being a 4 Ω load to the amp.

Buy a second amp in same M series that could be used to drive the two subs...one now and a second one added.

This would allow me to replace two amps with two amps and get a sizable boost in performance, but without bridging to speakers and driving them harder...

To drive every speaker with bridged outputs would require a third amp.

Thoughts??

Thx!

[dnadrifter]

If I have 2 of the M800/8 2x which is 2x 100 W x 8 @ 2 Ω / 75 W x 8 @ 4 Ω - 14.4V; what might be the best way to configure that power across the speakers I have...

or just go ahead and use the 2 M800/8 and add an M400/4 and bridge every speaker.


Thx,
Andy

I am going through a similar exercise on how to upgrade my existing 2006 X15. You have 4 more speakers....2 more in cabin and 2 towers. I have an existing M800/8 and am looking to add a mono block for the sub and run the existing 4 speakers in 4 x 200W using my existing M800/8. Right now it is driving everything, but my bow speakers are only getting 2 x 75W.

I would like to get the JL M600/1 for the mono block but it is pretty spendy and am considering some lower cost kicker and rockford fosgate options for the sub.

[BrushyCreekXS]

dnadrifter Sounds like we are in a similar hunt for best solution.

So are you currently using 2 channels running bow speakers and then 2 channels bridged for sub and then the remaining 4 channels bridged to run the 2 cockpit speakers?

I assume you have the component 770 speakers like I have...7" woofer and separate tweeter.

How do the cockpit speakers sound bridged to 200W each?

Do the bow speakers sound ok at 75W per channel?

I am not even getting that with my e6450 and e2150...I'm only getting 45 - 70 watts to in-boats depending on which and 45-60W on the towers and 150 - 240W on the bridged sub.

Trying to figure out if I could upgrade with just two amps vs. having to use 3.

You mentioned upgrading to M6 770 in other thread...are you dumping the component speakers...I am interested to hear them driven properly so I wasn't sure I wanted to replace speakers yet.

Thx,
Andy

[dnadrifter]

dnadrifter Sounds like we are in a similar hunt for best solution.

So are you currently using 2 channels running bow speakers and then 2 channels bridged for sub and then the remaining 4 channels bridged to run the 2 cockpit speakers? YES

I assume you have the component 770 speakers like I have...7" woofer and separate tweeter. YES

How do the cockpit speakers sound bridged to 200W each?

Do the bow speakers sound ok at 75W per channel?

I am not even getting that with my e6450 and e2150...I'm only getting 45 - 70 watts to in-boats depending on which and 45-60W on the towers and 150 - 240W on the bridged sub.

Trying to figure out if I could upgrade with just two amps vs. having to use 3.

You mentioned upgrading to M6 770 in other thread...are you dumping the component speakers...I am interested to hear them driven properly so I wasn't sure I wanted to replace speakers yet.

Thx,
Andy

Everything sounds good, better than it did with the one small amp that came stock. The cockpit speakers sound better than the bow, but to be honest I haven't done extensive testing. I have also always felt that my speakers kind of had a bit of background noise. My recent search came from being in other boats recently on the water and just feeling like they sounded much fuller and clearer.

Its all relative I guess. I am not an audiophile and don't have a good sense of what realistic expectations are for an open air environment of a boat, much less when running with engine noise. Part of the problem I think is placement of speakers. The cockpit speakers that are closest to me are either down at my feet while driving partially covered up by my feet and the other opposite is typically has a passenger in front of it. I guess I have just never really been super satisfied with the system and have always wondered if the speakers are just worn out...(it was a 9 yr old boat when I purchased it)

I may order the M6 7.7"s from Crutchfield and compare. They have an excellent return policy and I can return them if I don't think they make all that much difference.

I do really like the M8/800 amp I have. I really like how flexible it is and definitely recommend it.

[BrushyCreekXS]

skydyvyr

Hi Sky, I am trying to close out my thinking and start doing...i.e. ordering what I want to try.

I am not thinking about this as to what is the most cost effective, but rather, I want to get good bang for the buck and make it sound great. I don't want my ears to bleed lol but good clear audio with ample power to drive the speakers I have to their potential, and enough amp power that has some headroom for flexibility. This is an older boat. I am not sure how long I will keep it but I would like to start bringing it into a more current time...new flooring, upgrading audio, getting ballast pumps running properly and replacing the Perfect Pass display with new + controller etc. I have some time to play with it now and would like to do at least these things for now.

Here are a couple of options I am considering for audio.

1. Subwoofer:
- I don't have a great place for the 12" subwoofer solution in terms of mounting it and using a free air sub. I don't want to locate it under helm...a lot of electronics behind that kick plate and did not appeal to me.
- I have the older 10" sub now MC-10IB5-4...I found some subset of spec's on line for it and it is rated for 150W RMS...it did not give an Xmax...all I found was power, weight of 15lbs and 86.7dB sensitivity
- I could drive it harder and see what it does...currently I do have a bridged 150W driving it with the old e6450 amp, and it does not sound great...not a lot to it actually. But with what I have that is all I can drive it with.
- I was thinking the easiest upgrade would be to replace it with a new M6-10IB...which gets me to 250W, and power it effectively. However, the newer M6-10IB weighs 12.6 lbs and is rated with an 86.1 dB SPL...it made me wonder if the old 10"IB sub I have may be rated more conservatively and the new one may not sound much different if I drove them both the same...IDK
- It seems that per some of your notes which made sense to me...I would not see large improvement for the work required to add a second 10"IB to have 2x 10"IB subs...so maybe driving the 250W version to its potential may be a marked improvement over what I have...if I hate it, I'm only out the price of that sub and could then pursue a 12" ported solution and build an enclosure and figure out how to fit it in a storage space...I assume I have to figure out also how to vent it into the boat from wherever I figure out a space...so hoping I may be happy enough with the 10" driven harder...IDK

2. Speakers:
-As you know I have 6x in boats + 2 towers...all 7" component speakers...I know the in boats are rated at 100W RMS...not sure about the tower pods.

3. HU:
- M608 HU to replace current CMD4. Easy swap, 4 zone control, likely upgrade to new wired remote and cable to support. Don't really care about remote at swim platform.

4. Amps:
Couple of options that I have thought about so far.

One option:
MHD600/4
-2x 150W to bow speakers 4ohm - Zone
-2x 150W to towers 4ohm - Zone

MHD900/5
-4x 100W to cockpit 4ohm - Zone
-1x 500W to sub. 4ohm - Zone - dial back to drive the sub of choice from above.

Another option:
Sinister - SDX6 (6x 185W 4ohm); (6x 290W at 2ohms) with 14.4V power in to amp


1 channel to towers in parallel at 2 ohm ~145W to each
1 channel to bow in parallel at 2ohm ~ 145W to each
2 channels to cockpit both sets of two in parallel - also ~145W to each

2 remaining channels bridged to support sub...not sure what that would be...there is a note that the amp supports 3x 585W mono at 4ohm...if I bridge the 2 remaining channels is that more likely ~370W to sub?

5. Wiring:
-new wires to sub and get rid of the old speaker wire that is not marine grade
-use new RCA wiring and y adapter if needed to just go ahead and avoid any flaky RCA issue from old RCA's...not sure if necessary
-maybe use current speaker wires to in boats and towers just due to amount of work to replace...IDK
-have two independent 4awg power runs to amp area now.
-would like to add supplemental charging

Would love to get some critique or other ideas on the thinking here.

Many Thanks.

Andy

[skydyvyr]

I think you’re headed in the right direction. Updating your head unit will probably be the best single improvement you make. Next would be the new 10” with proper power. Proper cabling will make a positive improvement, but not as much as the first two steps. I also would not replace the factory wiring to the cabin speakers —too much work for nuanced improvement that would be inaudible in the boat environment anyway.

I like your first option for amps, but I know JL and have had great experience with their gear in several boats, and I’m not a huge fan of WetSounds, but I have no exp with their amps. They’re probably outstanding,

—Sky

[BrushyCreekXS]

I think you’re headed in the right direction. Updating your head unit will probably be the best single improvement you make. Next would be the new 10” with proper power. Proper cabling will make a positive improvement, but not as much as the first two steps. I also would not replace the factory wiring to the cabin speakers —too much work for nuanced improvement that would be inaudible in the boat environment anyway.

I like your first option for amps, but I know JL and have had great experience with their gear in several boats, and I’m not a huge fan of WetSounds, but I have no exp with their amps. They’re probably outstanding,

—Sky

Hi Sky,
Thanks for the input. My gut leans to staying with JL as well. I like their product and have some brand loyalty there...I have no experience with WetSounds, but that was a way to buy one amp and make it work...certainly more cost efficient, but I was a little concerned running all the channels at 2 ohms which extracts pretty much max power out of that SDX6 and a lot of current density in that one spot...might be better with the two MHD JL amps...I like the idea of the regulated power supply in the amps...one of the JL techs recommended the M series over the MHD...due to more current draw for the regulation...I don't buy into that as being so significant as compared to the actual current draw of each amp channel anyway...the aggregate current may be incrementally higher.

I am going to buy the new M6 IB10...I like the idea of the LED version but all the rest of my speakers have the classic grill...trying to decide if I want to have one speaker with the different grill but support LED...question is where do you run power from to run the LEDs...I assume it takes a 12V input like anything else in boats...do you just tap off of a circuit that powers on with the HU?

I am going to order option 1 above with the JL amps, new M6-10IB and the M608 HU...going to try and replace the sub speaker wires with marine grade, and go ahead and replace the the RCA's since that is easy...doubt it buys much performance, but RCAs do flake out sometimes and maybe there is some better signal integrity to be had with new cabling.

-Andy

[dnadrifter]

I will be anxiously waiting to see how you like your upgrade, especially the new 10" and HU. Two questions:

1) Why are you choosing the Clarion HU rather than a new fusion if you are likely going to get a new wired remote and cable anyway? Just easier swap fitment wise?
2) Are you going to run a second 4 AWG power and ground from the battery for the second amp or just split the existing. I think the existing is 5 AWG....can't remember now. (On mine, I was thinking to run a second and reroute the original and new so they aren't running in parallel with the speaker wire)

[dnadrifter]

I think you’re headed in the right direction. Updating your head unit will probably be the best single improvement you make.

—Sky

Hi Sky, Could you elaborate on why you think updating the head unit would make the biggest improvement. (as I am in a similar situation and considering the same)

Thx.

[BrushyCreekXS]

I will be anxiously waiting to see how you like your upgrade, especially the new 10" and HU. Two questions:

1) Why are you choosing the Clarion HU rather than a new fusion if you are likely going to get a new wired remote and cable anyway? Just easier swap fitment wise?
2) Are you going to run a second 4 AWG power and ground from the battery for the second amp or just split the existing. I think the existing is 5 AWG....can't remember now. (On mine, I was thinking to run a second and reroute the original and new so they aren't running in parallel with the speaker wire)

1. I wanted to use the M608 primarily because it is an easy upgrade...plug and play and fits in the slot and same mounting holes as the CMD4...also if you use an adapter on the 8 pin controls from the M608 to adapt it to the 6pin existing wired remote you can still use the remote for volume, pause, etc...

I must confess though that I am having second thoughts about that because I like the Fusion better from features and specs..and I like the idea of using the hideaway version..WB670. I would then have to fab something to cover the hole in the glove box where the old HU was and I would have to solve the remote problem as the fusion remote does not fit in the old Clarion remote cut out etc. I have been going back and forth on that one.

2. I currently have two amps that I am replacing and there are independent 4awg runs to it now. Both amps recommend 4awg mins...you could install one run of larger diameter wire to a terminal block and then run two short runs of 4awg to your amps.

[dnadrifter]

1. I wanted to use the M608 primarily because it is an easy upgrade...plug and play and fits in the slot and same mounting holes as the CMD4...also if you use an adapter on the 8 pin controls from the M608 to adapt it to the 6pin existing wired remote you can still use the remote for volume, pause, etc...

I must confess though that I am having second thoughts about that because I like the Fusion better from features and specs..and I like the idea of using the hideaway version..WB670. I would then have to fab something to cover the hole in the glove box where the old HU was and I would have to solve the remote problem as the fusion remote does not fit in the old Clarion remote cut out etc. I have been going back and forth on that one.

Yeah, I am not sure I would want to use the existing remote without the display....it would probably be fine, but I think it would bother me.

Agree....the remote issue to me is the biggest hurdle moving to the Fusion. I don't think I would go with the hideaway version though. I like the idea of know it is on and working by being able to see the display. Kind of stupid I know, but if I don't have sound or something doesn't seem right I think the display and being able to control it from there would be beneficial for me.

2. I currently have two amps that I am replacing and there are independent 4awg runs to it now. Both amps recommend 4awg mins...you could install one run of larger diameter wire to a terminal block and then run two short runs of 4awg to your amps.

Got it. Thats nice its already wired for two...forgot you had two originally. It think it will be easier for me just to run a second set of power and ground wires than getting a distribution block and making it look tidy, etc.

Really looking forward to hearing your experience with the M6 IB10.

[BrushyCreekXS]

dnadrifter

Yeah, the remote / adapter would have bothered me too if not able to use the display...so I likely would not have stuck with it, but it could have been a cheap stop gap and made that full mod secondary.

One more thing you may consider since you mentioned you are dealing with noise, is the pre-amp voltage on the WB670 is 5.5V and the Clarion is 4V...while 4V is not low, it is lower than the Fusion. The higher pre amp voltage should result in a reduction in gain of the amplifier when tuning the system, and maybe, a reduction in potential noise. I am a bit out of my lane here, maybe Sky is better versed, but it makes sense to me, and is another technical reason to go Fusion and deal with the harder install.

[BrushyCreekXS]

dnadrifter

Also, meant to paste this for you...a thread where the Clarion remote was replaced with the ERX 400 Fusion Remote...

https://teamtalk.mastercraft.com/for...rade-to-fusion

[MLA]

4V RMS is 2X what a typical media unit was just a few years, so the difference between 4V and 5.5V would not be a deal breaker, and one of the last features I would worry about. The M608 is a solid unit, but the zone control on the Apollo RA670 is much more user friendly and can be used on the remote. The down side is converting from the round clarion hole to the rectangle remotes.

[BrushyCreekXS]

4V RMS is 2X what a typical media unit was just a few years, so the difference between 4V and 5.5V would not be a deal breaker, and one of the last features I would worry about. The M608 is a solid unit, but the zone control on the Apollo RA670 is much more user friendly and can be used on the remote. The down side is converting from the round clarion hole to the rectangle remotes.

Hi MLA, I didn't really position it as a deal breaker, but it does make sense that it would help with reduction of noise with a lower gain. He is struggling with noise anyway so possibly a valid consideration and possible advantage.

As you say, my biggest struggle is thinking about converting that round remote...I wonder if I could put a blank flat gauge cover over the hole where the clarion remote is and then create a new mount position for the ERX 400.