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Question: 16 pin speaker out and RCA out

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  • Question: 16 pin speaker out and RCA out

    I wanted to start tracing my speaker wires and determine how difficult it will be to upgrade amps and possibly run new wires to speakers.

    RCA outs to amps and output from amps to speakers. check.

    Then I started looking at the speaker wires out of head unit and they are bundled and also routed.

    I did not think I was driving any speakers straight from HU. Are they run and not used?

    Thx.

  • #2
    Anything is possible… what is your current HU?

    —Sky
    ------------------------------------------------
    2006 X-1 Pumpkin Orange SOLD
    2013 X25 Black, Green & Orange

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by skydyvyr View Post
      Anything is possible… what is your current HU?

      —Sky
      Clarion CMD4 HU.

      Comment


      • #4
        Also something pretty weird happened when I changed filter setting.

        set up on e6450m amp before I changed anything:
        RCA input split with Y splitters to input ch1-4. In sum mode for ch 5-6.

        Outputs:
        -Ch. 1 - 4, speaker outputs look like they drive all 6 in boats
        -Ch. 5 and 6 speaker outputs bridged and drive subwoofer

        ch 1-2 filter was off, ch 3-4 filter set to HP with freq dialed to 120Hz, ch 4-5 set to LP and freq set all the way to max at 200 HZ

        since I assume ch 1-4 are driving the in boats I set ch 1-2 and 3-4 to hp and freq to ~100hz
        ch 5-6 LP and similar freq ~100hz

        when I changed ch 1-2 to HP, two of the in boats dropped out…no sound out of stbd bow speaker and stbd cockpit speaker closest to observer seat. Weird. Turned ch 1-2 filter back to off and they resumed playing.


        (as an aside, second amp e2150m drives the two tower speakers)

        Comment


        • #5
          So here’s my guesses (with the caveat that I haven’t seen your boat):

          —Speaker wires from the HU connect to the stock radio harness that was installed on all boats (amp equipped and non-amp equipped) that year/model run. If you track that harness far enough, probably towards the speaker wires from the amps, you’ll find an unused connector.
          —I’d ordinarily suspect that if you look at the speaker wiring at the amp for channels 1-4, you’ll find that 2 of the channels (1&2 or 3&4) each have one pair of speakers wired to them. These are most likely your bow speakers running at 4ohms. The other two channels will have two pairs of wires to each of them, these are to your cockpit speakers, running in parallel at 2ohms. However based on your explanation of the dropout when switching the HPF on, I’d guess that at least one channel (maybe both), the bow and forward cockpit speakers are wired together to the same channel(s) of the amp. In your current configuration — a single zone for all of your inboard speakers — it really doesn’t matter, but if you want to go to a multi zone setup, you’ll likely want the bow and cockpit on separate zones. To do this, you’ll want to wire everything as I described above.
          —The switches and pots/knobs on those old amps get gooked up and or corrode over time. This is resulting in one channel of your amp getting ‘disconnected’ when you move the switch/knob. You can try spraying the offending switch with something like this (while powered of) and flipping the switch/turning the pot back and forth, to see if it resolves any of your issues: https://www.homedepot.com/p/WD-40-SP...E&gclsrc=aw.ds. If this doesn’t fix it, those 770s are full range speakers, and it won’t hurt anything to leave the HPF off. You may just want to tune your sub accordingly depending on your preference.
          —Personal choice, but I’d probably set your inboard speaker HPF at 120 and your sub LPF at 100. Due to the way that these filters work, this will result in flatter, more efficient performance of your system. Because of the way these filters work, signal below the HPF pass frequency and above the LPF still pass through the filter, this means that if both filters are set at the same frequency, you’ll have a bump at that frequency because both your kids and sub will be playing that signal. On a typical filter the roll off is roughly 3db at the filter point, but still, something to think about. Even if you want to have the HPF and LPF at the same point, with a 10” sub, you may prefer a 120, 150 or even 200 setting. Just food for thought. Fortunately, these are things you can play with in a non-destructive way and tune to your personal preference. I’m only sharing this because you mentioned in another thread that you can hear the difference between AB and D amplifiers, so you may have a discerning enough ear to hear the differences here.

          —Sky
          ------------------------------------------------
          2006 X-1 Pumpkin Orange SOLD
          2013 X25 Black, Green & Orange

          Comment


          • #6
            Hello Sky,

            Thanks for taking the time to teach me some things here. I appreciate the help. The harness from the HU was a bit confusing to me due to how it was routed into a connector and then bundled into the black plastic flex tubing...attaching pic...its hard to tell where it goes from there. In the second pic of the harness connection you can see how it is 'Y'd together with the output wires from the amp into one flex tube.

            Also is it typical to bring both wires off the amp output terminal when wiring the speakers in parallel or do they wire the second speaker in parallel off the speaker terminals...I will take the speakers out and look next time down? I have two channels where the second wires are clipped off. I am attaching a pic of the output of the amp as well...It is hard to guess what they did without starting to rip some stuff out and see where it's going. I did take one speaker out...it is the forward stbd cockpit...it had a single pair of wires to it on the +/- Since those are 7" woofers with external tweeters, there are jumpers from what I suppose are filters at the speakers that send the high freq to the tweeter and lower freqs to the woofers.

            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #7
              Ok. Now after studying my own pictures I understand the 16 pin vs. amp speaker wires! Duh.

              the speaker wires coming out of the 16 pin connector on HU terminate at the connector at the bundle and the amp speaker wire bundle picks up yellow, red, black and blue/white from the HU which are memory power, power and ground leads and amp turn on leads.

              Still curious about why speaker wires are clipped at amp outputs. Could they have wired left channel and right channel info to corresponding speakers?

              Comment


              • #8
                Ok, your amp was clearly retired by a PO. My guess is that they tapped the forward cabin speakers off of the bow speakers. Here are my guesses:
                —First, I think the boat originally had a four channel amp, and maybe four in cabin speakers. I believe the green and green black were clipped from the bundles with white & white black, and the gray, gray/black from purple & purple/black bundles when the six channel amp was added. It’s likely that the sub and tower speakers were added at the same time based on the non-marine zip cord speaker wires that were used for them.
                —I’m next guessing that the forward cockpit speakers were added later and tapped off of the bow speakers because it was easier to wire from there than the amp location.

                The 770 component midrange speaker has a passive xover built into it. If you look at the back of one (probably really easy to see the one in the coffin locker on the observer side), you’ll see six wires coming off of it; speaker power + & - coming from the amp, HPF output + & - going to the component tweeter, and LPF output going to the component midrange speaker.

                If it were mine, I’d figure out how to run wires directly from the amp(s) to the forward cockpit speakers.
                Then I’d either run them in parallel with the rear cockpit speakers (two amp channels) or four separate amp channels if you’re adding amps.
                I would then install a head unit with at least three zones, creating a bow zone with the two bow speakers, a cockpit zone with all four speakers in the cockpit and the sub, and a tower zone with the tower speakers in it. This way I’d be able to independently adjust volume to each of these zones. I get pretty frustrated by boaters who have their tower speakers booming when nobody is behind the boat, so I turn my tower zone down when nobody’s on the line or in the wave. I’d also have a remote control in the bow that is linked to the bow zone, one by the helm that can access all zones, and one on the stern that controls tower volume.

                —Sky
                ------------------------------------------------
                2006 X-1 Pumpkin Orange SOLD
                2013 X25 Black, Green & Orange

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Sky. It is hard to say what got hacked by previous owner. I bought the boat from original owner in 08 and it is an 06...it had 50 hours on it.

                  It appears from threads around here that the 06's, especially XStar, were equipped with these same two amps...e6450 and e2150's. Most came equipped with 4 in boats, 2 towers, and a 10" sub. Mine has an extra pair of in boats. Not sure if two were added.

                  Also here is another thread on this forum with an 06 XStar as well...his set up looks a lot like mine...he had 4 in boats and not 6...but he has clipped wires at ch 4 like mine but not also at ch 1. Maybe MC built a harness that I showed above in pic and based on how many in boats were installed they wired slightly differently and clipped the wire that was already tied into the connector that went to the amp...IDK...

                  Here is the other link: https://teamtalk.mastercraft.com/for...not-turning-on

                  I did take out the forward cockpit starboard component speaker by the observer deck...it does not look added because the cutout looks like part of the OEM job. See pic.

                  Maybe I should quit worrying about it and start replacing lol...

                  I liked your recommendation on zones. I might be served well to buy a Clarion 608 HU to replace my CMD4...it looks like the harness out the back would be drop in and the size would fit the hole already there...it has 4 zone support as well. Might be the easiest path for that part and should work pretty well for quality signal.

                  I should likely replace both amps since they are old anyway and I would like more power per channel to each speaker.

                  One trade off is trying to do the upgrade with two amps vs. 3...I would need to run new power and ground 4awg up to that locker to power a 3rd amp.

                  Would love to hear your thoughts on which amp and speaker config you would approach this with. I do want to put the bow on a separate zone and the towers on a separate zone so I like what you said above.

                  I also would prefer to stay with JL on the amp replacements...primarily out of brand loyalty and matching to my JL speakers. If in the end I start also replacing the speakers I will likely go back with M6 770's so my new amps would drive those if the component speakers don't sound good for some reason...I am thinking the old speakers may sound great powered correctly...at least hoping for that.

                  I am thinking about 2 of the 8 channel M series amps and bridging some of the channels and then paralleling some of the speakers to have enough channels...I want to leave the option of adding a 2nd 10" sub if I am not happy with it after the amp upgrade...likely in the kick plate under the driver seat. That is one way of not having to add a 3rd amp.

                  It would likely be best to add the two 8 ch amps for the 6 in boat + 2 tower which would be all 16 channels if I bridged outputs to each speaker, and then add a 3rd amp that could power two subs...just more money and harder to do. I know it would sound better...but also wonder if doing it with two 8 channel amps would be such an upgrade to what I have now that I would be happy with it...IDK.

                  Let me know what you think...also should I plan on running new speaker wires or is ok to re-use as much as possible.

                  Thx!



                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Also, as an aside, the non-marine looking speaker wires in my pics match the other pics from the thread I copied the link to...not sure why MC did that, but those wires that run to the tower from the e2150 only go a few feet and then are crimped onto marine wires that are part of the pre-wired tower assembly. I am not sure how far the sub wires go, but are likely also crimped on to marine wires to go across the boat to the sub...I have not traced the sub wires yet.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You’re right, looks factory to me too. I still stand by my supposition of where the wires were cut from my post above, but maybe, as you suggested, it was done at the factory. The use of automotive crimps on the cut cables is kinda suspect tho…

                      you can never have a big enough cable for speaker runs, but that being said, for 100-200W speakers, I’d leave the factory wires and just run new wires from your forward cockpit speakers to the amp location, so each speaker has it’s own connection at the amp, even if you are running them in parallel. In your other thread, you mention the M800/8, and I’d probably go with that but run each speaker off of it’s own channel, then bridge 7&8 for your sub. I’d then probably go with an M400/4 in 2 channel bridged mode for the tower speakers.

                      I’m kind of an incremental upgrade kinda guy, meaning I’d upgrade the HU and power then see how things sound. If you end up feeling the 770’s are lacking, you can always replace them later. I wouldn’t be so worried about crossing amp and speaker brands, but if that is important to you, the JL M6-770s or M3-770s are very good and would be pretty much a bolt up replacement — you could just leave your current tweeters in place and disconnected so you don’t have to cover the holes somehow.

                      I really like the Roswell speakers: https://www.wakemakers.com/collectio...-boat-speakers. They are slightly larger than the M770’s, but should fit in the same holes. I feel like they have a slightly warmer sound than the JL M6-770’s, but they are slightly less efficient than the M6’s and about as efficient as the M3’s.

                      —Sky

                      ------------------------------------------------
                      2006 X-1 Pumpkin Orange SOLD
                      2013 X25 Black, Green & Orange

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thx Sky. Yes it is suspicious that the crimps where the cut wires are are different, (did not know they were automotive), but they match exactly with the pics in that link to the other 06 XStar. As weird as it is, it is likely more than a coincidence.

                        I liked your recommendation on schematic. One more question, no channels left to add a second sub with that configuration…what do you think about having 2 subs in this scenario or even possibly replacing the existing 10” with a 12” and staying with 1 sub?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My preference would be a single 12” over double 10”s unless you have the 10”s slaved in a single, tuned enclosure. With the nearly 8” mids in the 770s or the true 8” in the Roswell speakers, I’d want at least a 12” for the sub.

                          —Sky
                          ------------------------------------------------
                          2006 X-1 Pumpkin Orange SOLD
                          2013 X25 Black, Green & Orange

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I agree. I had been thinking about swapping to a 12” seems like a good approach. Thx. Enjoyed the dialogue!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by skydyvyr View Post
                              You’re right, looks factory to me too. I still stand by my supposition of where the wires were cut from my post above, but maybe, as you suggested, it was done at the factory. The use of automotive crimps on the cut cables is kinda suspect tho…

                              you can never have a big enough cable for speaker runs, but that being said, for 100-200W speakers, I’d leave the factory wires and just run new wires from your forward cockpit speakers to the amp location, so each speaker has it’s own connection at the amp, even if you are running them in parallel. In your other thread, you mention the M800/8, and I’d probably go with that but run each speaker off of it’s own channel, then bridge 7&8 for your sub. I’d then probably go with an M400/4 in 2 channel bridged mode for the tower speakers.

                              I’m kind of an incremental upgrade kinda guy, meaning I’d upgrade the HU and power then see how things sound. If you end up feeling the 770’s are lacking, you can always replace them later. I wouldn’t be so worried about crossing amp and speaker brands, but if that is important to you, the JL M6-770s or M3-770s are very good and would be pretty much a bolt up replacement — you could just leave your current tweeters in place and disconnected so you don’t have to cover the holes somehow.

                              I really like the Roswell speakers: https://www.wakemakers.com/collectio...-boat-speakers. They are slightly larger than the M770’s, but should fit in the same holes. I feel like they have a slightly warmer sound than the JL M6-770’s, but they are slightly less efficient than the M6’s and about as efficient as the M3’s.

                              —Sky
                              Sky, I am trying to think through biting the bullet and putting 3 amps in to replace the two...wondering if it is the right thing...I have a lot of speakers in the boat so not running bridged 200W to any in boat speaker vs. having 6 in boats all ~75W and 200W x2 to tower speakers is what I am pondering. Likely don't need 200W to all 6 in boats but wondering if I would be underwhelmed with 75W to all 6 in boats...Thoughts?

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