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  • #16
    Nominal impedance on the JLs are 4 ohms right? I guess your are doing fine though at 2 ohm or you wouldn’t have posted the above?
    Boat: 2006 X15
    Tow: 2017, 6.2L GMC Sierra, Crew Cab, Max Tow

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    • #17
      Originally posted by dnadrifter View Post

      I think I misread the earlier post. Yeah, I would need to add two new amps if I go with two subs.

      Or maybe one M400/4 (200W x2)?
      No, no you do not, based on the equipment list as is. Two (2) 4 ohm M610IB or M310IB wired in parallel = 2 ohm load to the amp.

      The M600/1 is rated at 600W rms with a 2 ohm load. So each woofer nets 300W.

      The HTX-1 is rated at 650W rms at a 2 ohm load, so each speaker nets 325W.

      I do not know the specs of the rockford 500/1, but it to is 2 ohm stable and will, in fact, driver two 4 ohm woofers.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by BrushyCreekXS View Post

        I guess I can’t say for sure on the HU sound quality since I have no way of comparing them side by side. However, I have read some comments on threads here and on THT site that said there was a noticeable improvement in sound quality with the M608 over the CMD4 . I am hoping that is the case, but I am also doing it for the 4 zone control.
        Are you going with the M608. I was looking at head units last night. Would like to get a fusion, but then I am going to end up have either two useless wired remotes or two holes that look weird. From what I found on the web quickly, the old fusion wired remotes were close to the same hole size as the the clarion units and one post mentioned a fusion adapter plate from old to new. Need to do more research.
        Boat: 2006 X15
        Tow: 2017, 6.2L GMC Sierra, Crew Cab, Max Tow

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        • #19
          Originally posted by MLA View Post

          No, no you do not, based on the equipment list as is. Two (2) 4 ohm M610IB or M310IB wired in parallel = 2 ohm load to the amp.

          The M600/1 is rated at 600W rms with a 2 ohm load. So each woofer nets 300W.

          The HTX-1 is rated at 650W rms at a 2 ohm load, so each speaker nets 325W.

          I do not know the specs of the rockford 500/1, but it to is 2 ohm stable and will, in fact, driver two 4 ohm woofers.
          So the M610IB is fine with the 2 ohm? I knew about the amp and it was fine given the specs, but JL only lists numbers for 4 ohm. I am still learning and acquiring all this stereo info. Wetsounds subs can be purchased as either 2 or 4 ohm, so I guess I figured it wasn't a good idea to run the JL subs listed as 4 ohm with 2. I am sure I still misunderstanding something, but appreciate the clarification and pointing out the better alternative from you and bcd.
          Boat: 2006 X15
          Tow: 2017, 6.2L GMC Sierra, Crew Cab, Max Tow

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          • #20
            Originally posted by dnadrifter View Post

            So the M610IB is fine with the 2 ohm? I knew about the amp and it was fine given the specs, but JL only lists numbers for 4 ohm. I am still learning and acquiring all this stereo info. Wetsounds subs can be purchased as either 2 or 4 ohm, so I guess I figured it wasn't a good idea to run the JL subs listed as 4 ohm with 2. I am sure I still misunderstanding something, but appreciate the clarification and pointing out the better alternative from you and bcd.
            The impedance of each individual woofer never changes, it goes in as a 4 ohm and stays 4 ohm. The only thing that changes is the final impedance at the amp when 2 or more woofers are wired together to a single amp chnl.

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            • #21
              Where would folks prefer the location of a second sub, assuming I can bring myself to cut a 10" hole in my boat. (the 3" hole I cut for my second remote was tough enough)

              I think I prefer location B from an aesthetic standpoint. Is one better than the other from an audio quality/sonic perspective.
              Boat: 2006 X15
              Tow: 2017, 6.2L GMC Sierra, Crew Cab, Max Tow

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MLA View Post

                The impedance of each individual woofer never changes, it goes in as a 4 ohm and stays 4 ohm. The only thing that changes is the final impedance at the amp when 2 or more woofers are wired together to a single amp chnl.
                Thanks for the lesson. Looks like I need to read up more and better understand speaker and amp impedance and implications of wiring things different ways. Thanks.
                Boat: 2006 X15
                Tow: 2017, 6.2L GMC Sierra, Crew Cab, Max Tow

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by dnadrifter View Post

                  Thanks for the lesson. Looks like I need to read up more and better understand speaker and amp impedance and implications of wiring things different ways. Thanks.
                  dnadrifter

                  My chicken scratch isn't great, but here is a quick sketch of the basics to show you the why.

                  Attached Files
                  2006 XStar
                  Sold - 2001 X30
                  Sold - 1994 Prostar 190

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dnadrifter View Post

                    Are you going with the M608. I was looking at head units last night. Would like to get a fusion, but then I am going to end up have either two useless wired remotes or two holes that look weird. From what I found on the web quickly, the old fusion wired remotes were close to the same hole size as the the clarion units and one post mentioned a fusion adapter plate from old to new. Need to do more research.
                    I do think that is the direction I will go. I believe it is likely a good a HU and it is by far the easiest upgrade from the CMD4. If you wanted to sacrifice the LCD on the old remote and thus the streaming info on the LCD you can put an adapter on the DIN cable from the new M608 and drive the existing 6pin DIN cable to your current remote and still have pause and volume control etc. I am thinking I may wire in the new remote and remove the old one. I believe you can make it fit in the existing hole. I have to verify that...but it would give you full features just the pain of running a new cable over there and swapping them out.
                    2006 XStar
                    Sold - 2001 X30
                    Sold - 1994 Prostar 190

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      In my experience adding speakers in parallel to an amplifier rarely increases SPL or quality of sound. It is true that running two speakers at 2ohms on an amplifier that will support that will raise the watts delivered to the two speakers over what it would deliver to a single speaker, but effectively (depending on the actual ohm load of each speaker) only half of that power is delivered to each.

                      So a M600/1 will deliver 400W to a single speaker 4ohm load, and 600W (RMS, not peak in both cases) to a double speaker 2ohm load. In the two speaker case, each speaker is receiving roughly 300W of power, or 75% of what would be delivered to the single speaker.

                      To experience an apparent doubling in volume level, the humans typically need between a 6db and 10db increase in SPL. You can generally expect a 3db SPL increase every time you double your power. This means if you want to double the volume of a 400 watt amp, 3200W is required for it to be felt as if it is twice as loud.

                      Now you may say to this, I don’t need twice as loud, I just want louder. That is a valid statement and desire.

                      For a change in volume to be perceptible, humans need a 3db increase. As db levels increase, ambient noise, signal frequency (sub bass or bass require a higher db increase to be perceptible than a or even age increase, more than a 4db or 5db increase may be required to perceive an increase in SPL (volume). With this understanding, 2 speakers running at 300W each would deliver 1.5db increase over a single 400W speaker — an imperceptible increase in volume to almost anyone.

                      So let’s add speakers into the amplifier math. The JL M610IB has a rated power handling of 250W RMS, so a single speaker is not a great power match to a M600/1 amp. Two M610IBs running in parallel are a much better power match for an M600/1 — but those two 10” speakers can only offer/promise (but rarely deliver) a maximum of a 3db (or barely perceptible) increase over a properly powered and tuned single 10” speaker. This assumes they are properly aligned, balanced and working in tandem which is rarely the case in a marine environment.

                      So, what does our barely perceptible multiple speaker speaker setup cost us?

                      First, there is the cost of bigger amps, more speakers, more power. With more components, comes a higher risk of individual component failure and required repair/replacement cost.
                      Then there is the cost of the effort to set them up. In most cases in our boats, adding additional subs is far more than double the work.
                      Once the more complex system is set up, when (not if) there is a problem, it is much more difficult to troubleshoot.
                      Finally, and this is a big one for me, everything we do with audio on our boats is a compromise in quality. Adding IB subs (already a compromise by their nature) in random mounting locations, can negatively impact quality in a big way, even effectively cancelling each other out at some frequency bands in a worst case scenario. Nothing disappoints me more than a system that is designed (or maybe assembled is the right word here) to sacrifice quality for volume. Loud crappy sound is noise. Why bother?

                      Where sub base is concerned, I will always select a larger single speaker over multiple smaller speakers.

                      I know everyone here who is interested in this topic has spent plenty of money on their audio systems, and if you are happy with what you have, I’m happy for you.

                      —Sky






                      ------------------------------------------------
                      2006 X-1 Pumpkin Orange SOLD
                      2013 X25 Black, Green & Orange

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                      • #26
                        Hey Sky, Helpful post. So in the other thread we were discussing tangential ideas for system set up...in this thread dnadrifter has a subset of exactly what I am doing...so we have shared some ideas as well. We both have the issue that the 12" sub does not fit where we would like to put it ...which is in the place of the 10" sub...this fostered the idea of going with 2x 10" subs which is not what I wanted and in light of not advancing bass response and quality of sound I have no interest...what is a practical solution that does not kill the installer...me?

                        I was headed down this path: M608 to replace CMD4 with 4 zones.
                        MHD600/4
                        -2x 150W to bow speakers 4ohm - Zone
                        -2x 150W to towers 4ohm - Zone

                        MHD900/5
                        -4x 100W to cockpit 4ohm - Zone
                        -1x 500W to sub. 4ohm - Zone
                        (The sub was to be the M7 12" but it does not fit)

                        What, in your estimation, is the best route?

                        Thx,
                        Andy
                        2006 XStar
                        Sold - 2001 X30
                        Sold - 1994 Prostar 190

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          You can start with just upping the power going to your single 10" sub and see if you are happy with that. If not, I think your only options are put a properly powered 12" sub and box inside an enclosure (and disconnect your 10" IB) or add a second IB sub and power both amps correctly. Maybe Sky will have another recommendation. I had a 12" sub and box inside the coffin seat with 1000W RMS in my previous boat. I had planned to move it over to my new boat, but it came with the single, under powered IB 10". They also added the EVAP system to my new boat, and the secondary gas tank under the coffin seat meant that the 12" sub/box no longer fit. I decided to go with the second 10" IB based on what SS LS1 and others did. I think it sounds good, but not as good as what my 12" did (volume wise). That being said, I'm not a real audiophile and I did not ever try just upping the power of my single 10" sub to compare to that.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by bcd View Post
                            You can start with just upping the power going to your single 10" sub and see if you are happy with that. If not, I think your only options are put a properly powered 12" sub and box inside an enclosure (and disconnect your 10" IB) or add a second IB sub and power both amps correctly. Maybe Sky will have another recommendation. I had a 12" sub and box inside the coffin seat with 1000W RMS in my previous boat. I had planned to move it over to my new boat, but it came with the single, under powered IB 10". They also added the EVAP system to my new boat, and the secondary gas tank under the coffin seat meant that the 12" sub/box no longer fit. I decided to go with the second 10" IB based on what SS LS1 and others did. I think it sounds good, but not as good as what my 12" did (volume wise). That being said, I'm not a real audiophile and I did not ever try just upping the power of my single 10" sub to compare to that.
                            Hi bcd, yes, if I could get the 12" in where the 10" is now I was just going to pull the trigger and get it done. That was the disappointment.

                            My amp choice was/is the MHD900/5 because it allowed me to run the 4 cockpit speakers at 100W each and 500W to the single M7 sub that is rated up to 600W. I guess I could still do the same thing and dial back the sensitivity. The current M6 10IB subs are rated at 250W RMS. I have the 2006 10" IB sub...I don't have the exact part number on that speaker...I want to know what it is rated...I'm going to assume similar. I could drive that current sub dialed back a little or disconnect it figure out an enclosure solution for the 12" and drive it or still use the same amp and drive 2x 10" IB M6 subs in parallel with roughly 250W each.
                            2006 XStar
                            Sold - 2001 X30
                            Sold - 1994 Prostar 190

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by BrushyCreekXS View Post

                              Hi bcd, yes, if I could get the 12" in where the 10" is now I was just going to pull the trigger and get it done. That was the disappointment.
                              Yeah, this is definitely the preferred path. Its too bad it doesn't fit easily. It does seem like the Wetsounds 12" has a bit of a smaller template, but the specs I found online for the grill and opening aren't as comprehensive as JLs. I may still look into it a bit. With that said, it seems as if folks kind of think the JL M6 subs are significantly better than others....so one might not be gaining as much from a WS 12" compared to JL M610IB.

                              My current plan today, which actually won't be till later in the season.
                              1) Add an Amp. This will get all of my 4 in boat 7.7s onto my M8/800 and provide the existing original sub with its own power.
                              • Right now leaning toward a cheaper Rockford ($320). Their 500/1 is 500W at 2 ohms and 300W at 4 Ohms. It also has a 15-40 Hz infrasonic filter. It is a pretty inexpensive investment to start and I could likely provide adequate but not great power to (2) 10" subs if I went that direction. First though I figured I will see how the system sounds as is.
                              2) Consider replacing the old 10" sub with a new M610IB
                              3) Consider replacing one pair of the old 7.7 with new M6 7.7s
                              4) Consider replacing head unit.
                              Boat: 2006 X15
                              Tow: 2017, 6.2L GMC Sierra, Crew Cab, Max Tow

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                              • #30
                                Does anyone know the difference in spec and or quality of the older 10" IB sub that were shipped with the 7.7 component speakers as compared to the M6 10" IB subs...?
                                2006 XStar
                                Sold - 2001 X30
                                Sold - 1994 Prostar 190

                                Comment

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