Looking for Audio Upgrade Advice

[MLA]

Things that make you go Hmmmmmm;

If two 10" woofers do not increase SPL over a single 10", then why go with a 12" (less surface are then two 10") in place of a 10"?

[dnadrifter]

Does anyone know the difference in spec and or quality of the older 10" IB sub that were shipped with the 7.7 component speakers as compared to the M6 10" IB subs...?

I would like to know also.

I also have the same question about the 7.7 component speakers also vs the M6 7.7s.

[skydyvyr]

Things that make you go Hmmmmmm;

If two 10" woofers do not increase SPL over a single 10", then why go with a 12" (less surface are then two 10") in place of a 10"?

Two 10s will increase SPL, but only in a barely perceptible way. If you are running at low volume levels, a pair of 10s would probably distribute sub base better, but other than that, I would prefer a 12” to either a 10” or two 10” speakers for quality reasons. But, since you mentioned it:

Surface area of combined drivers does not change the performance of any individual driver or somehow alter their sonic performance.

For example, a JL M712IB has a surface area of roughly 81sq” (as compared to 50” for the M610IB). You could take 100 or 200 or even 1000 1” tweeters and combined, they’ll have significantly more surface area, but never ever effectively reproduce sub bass frequencies like a 12” or even 10” speaker.

There are exceptions to this of course. Bose and their wave technology of tuned enclosures combined with excessive DSP are able to do amazing things with 4” drivers. You can take a properly ported cabinet that is tuned for a specific 10” speaker and get great sub bass out of it, but it’s the speaker working in conjunction with the enclosure that generates the lower frequencies. We aren’t talking about any of these scenarios.

When reproducing sub bass the key to both quality, volume and feeling the thump in your gut is moving air. This is accomplished through both surface area and the distance the cone can move, typically referred to as Xmax. The M610IB has a surface area of 50sq” and an Xmax of 0.52”. The M712IB has a surface area of 81sql” and an Xmax of 0.73”. To calculate air movement of the speaker we’ll use the metric system as it is easier. We’ll measure the air moved in Liters, the surface area of the cone in cm2, and the linear travel (Xmax) in cm. Xmax only measures in one direction, so we have to multiply it by 2 to get the full air movement:
M610IB: 323cm2 x 1.32cm x 2 = 852.72cm3 or .85272 liters of air per full cycle. Two arrayed together would be 1.70544 liters of air per cycle.
M712IB: 520cm2 x 1.85cm x 2 = 1924cm3 or 1.924 liters of air per full cycle

The JL 12” will move roughly 15% more air than two 10” speakers. This results in significantly better low end frequency response (I wish JL published charts so we could compare).

Now lets look at efficiency. Both speakers are roughly equally as efficient at 86.1/w/m for the 10 and 86.7db/w/m for the 12. This means given the same power, they’ll both put out the same SPL.

Now Power…

The 12 will handle significantly more power as it is rated for 600W RMS where the 10 is rated at 250W RMS. A single fully powered JL 12” speaker will deliver more volume than two JL 10s, but as I pointed out in my previous post, the difference between 500W and 600W is imperceptible to the human ear, so we can call this a wash, except that the 12” will have roughly 20% more headroom before distortion than 2 10s.

While I have not had the opportunity to compare these speakers in person, the specifications alone suggest that the 12 will outperform two 10s in every way, except number of speakers in the boat.

I should also mention that the specification comparison above would assume two 10s side by side in separate enclosed 2ft3 spaces. If they share the same space, or fire in different directions or at different angles, or have different length cable runs, they are no longer working together, but competing with each other, reducing their efficiency and quality. A simple 2D illustration of this can be seen by tossing two quarters into a perfectly still pool of water and watching the waves. If they are taped together, the waves will be clean and organized. If they aren’t, the waves they create will be messy and at times conflict with each other.

Now I know that I probably sound like some sort of 12” subwoofer fanboy or something, but if I could figure out how to get it in my boat, Ikd go with this in a heartbeat: https://wetsounds.com/REVO-15-XXX-V4-B/

Anyway, this is probably way more info than anyone wanted or was even willing to read. If you did get through it and want references for any of the info I’ve presented, ping me, I’m happy to share.

—Sky

[dnadrifter]

Anyway, this is probably way more info than anyone wanted or was even willing to read. If you did get through it and want references for any of the info I’ve presented, ping me, I’m happy to share.

—Sky

Thanks Sky. I read it and it helped me understand. I appreciated your coin and wave analogy. I am guessing this is why home theater applications have phase knobs on subwoofers so you can "match" or time the waves?

Only question, staying with the wave analogy, are the waves coming from the smaller in boat speakers are a different frequency so as not to interfere as much?

BTW, if I get that REVO 15 and an amp to power it, I would then have plenty of time for wakeboarding and skiing as I would probably be single at that point.

[skydyvyr]

BTW, if I get that REVO 15 and an amp to power it, I would then have plenty of time for wakeboarding and skiing as I would probably be single at that point.

I’m right there with ya, ‘cuz if I got that huge thing, I’d have to get a bigger boat to wrap around it, and a bigger slip for the bigger boat, and a smaller house, because by that point I’d be alone too.

The answer to your question is nuanced, but yes they interfere with each other to a degree and is a both a desired undesired effect.

First, why this is good…
A stereo signal is designed so that the sound feels enveloping, with slightly different audio being sent to Left and Right channels to produce a desired effect, typically to mimic a live environment. In live environments, we are constantly pummeled by audio from all directions. Multi-channel (Stereo, Surround, etc) systems take advantage of the interference, making us feel like we are in a different environment. Sometimes the artist wants to play with our minds — put a good pair of headphones on and listen to “Moving in Stereo” by The Cars with your eyes closed some day and you hear what I mean.

Second where it is bad…
In some situations, where multiple speakers are producing the same signal, either in a mono system or a single channel of as stereo or surround system, as the waves from multiple sources (different speakers, sounds reflected off of hard surfaces, etc) strike our ears the waves may double or triple up (old wakeboarding terms, do I get bonus points?) or canceled at the point they hit our ears. This will cause some frequencies to be amplified and some to be cancelled out. Large stadium systems have this problem, particularly when they aren’t full. It is why sometimes, depending on your location, you can hear the announcer, but not clearly understand what they are saying, but the person next to you heard them clearly.

The key to understanding why mids and tweeters create less havoc when multiple speakers are deployed than subs is the nature of how sound waves interact in our environment. An 80hz sound wave (a frequency typically produced by a subwoofer) is approx 14’ long. Waves this size require more energy to create, and are difficult to block or deflect based on their size. On the other hand, higher frequencies, like say 2000hz (a frequency typically produced by a tweeter) have a wavelength of roughly 7”. These waves are easily blocked and or reflected. As a result, mid and high sound frequencies produced by speakers tend to be more directional than those produced by subwoofers. This is one of the reasons why you can be sitting in your car next to someone who is blasting their stereo and you only hear the sub bass. Inside the car, they are hearing full range sound, but the higher, more directed frequencies are either reflected back into the car, absorbed by the soft surfaces or transformed into other frequencies as they pass through surfaces (the buzzing you often hear accompanying the thump from the car next to you) while the lower frequencies easily escape.

This all adds up to mid and higher frequencies not suffering from the same type of interference from sound produced by other speakers that subwoofers do.

Another reason that mids and highs suffer less from interference than subs do is the range of frequencies they reproduce. A typical subwoofer is reproducing a range of frequencies from 20hz to 120hz or maybe as high as 240hz depending on the sound system configuration. On the other hand mids reproduce 120hz to 1500hz or 2khz and tweeters produce 1500hz to 20khz. Due to the relatively narrow frequency range that a subwoofer reproduces, it is more susceptible to interference. Speakers with a broader range, may suffer from interference, but it will only affect particular frequencies and be potentially unnoticed.

For example, two speakers reproducing an identical audio signal set facing each other 3.5” apart would create a field between them where 2khz would cancel out. Other frequencies would be affected, but to a lesser and lesser degree as you get further from 2khz. If you set them 7” apart the same frequency would double. Other frequencies would also be affected, but again less and less as you get further from 2khz. This effect would be limited to the area between the speakers. Off axis of the pair, there would be areas of null and doubled sound as yo approached full or half wavelength for the frequency, but you might not be able to notice it. Our flesh is a great sound absorber, so as we move through a sound field, we are constantly absorbing higher frequency waves (most of us aren’t sizeable enough to absorb low frequency waves).

Anyway, there is a lot to unpack here, but mids and highs are less susceptible to interference than subs are.

—Sky

[dnadrifter]

I’m right there with ya, ‘cuz if I got that huge thing, I’d have to get a bigger boat to wrap around it, and a bigger slip for the bigger boat, and a smaller house, because by that point I’d be alone too.

The answer to your question is nuanced, but yes they interfere with each other to a degree and is a both a desired undesired effect.

First, why this is good…

.....Anyway, there is a lot to unpack here, but mids and highs are less susceptible to interference than subs are.

—Sky

Thanks for taking the time to write a big explanation. I appreciate learning about all of this. It helps on making decisions in my own boat....appreciate it.

[dnadrifter]

I did quite a bit of thinking and listening in my boat yesterday and also am considering the different content that was discussed in BushyCreeks thread.

Background Noise: I think my background noise must be coming from the engine, because yesterday in my driveway with just the stereo on, it sounded crystal clear. Not that the sound couldnt be improved, but the sound that was coming out didn't have any noise in it...or very little since I guess there would always be noise at some level. I think I am going to tear apart the stock wire bundling and try to separate the power/ground wires from all the of the speaker wires and route differently to see if that helps.

Bow vs Cabin speakers powered at 75 vs 200W: The back cabin speakers definitely sound better with the additional power compared to the bow speakers being powered at 75W. I had never really compared that closely before. Yesterday I used some various test tones form Kicker's website and that further solidified my opinion. The front bows don't sound bad, they just don't sound as substantial compared to the cabins being driven by 200W.

Subwoofer: Did more measuring and thinking about placement of a 12" or a second 10". At the end of the day I just don't really want to put another hole in the cabin. (The most likely place would be pointed to the driver going into the dry storage area.) I kind of like the way it looks now which is cleaner, with just the sub behind the driver. And a 12" simply isn't going to fit there as Creek as mentioned. Depending on Creeks experience with the M6 10IB I may upgrade the old stock 10" to see if I can squeeze some additional performance out of that location. I also did some inspection of the enclosure the sub is going to (the seat behind the driver), and I think it could help to plug some fo the gaps in that enclosure. It obvious extends back to the other seats, but there are also some pretty big gaps and holes that lead to the helm area (which opens to the cockpit) and up through the side that I may try to plug up with something. Not sure what yet....I thought about towels/rags, but not sure that would do much.

Stock speakers vs New M6 7.7s: With doing some experimenting with test tones and sweeps I think my current speakers are in pretty good shape. They all sounded fine, which I have always kind of questioned if something was wrong with them. I think adding a second amp for the sub and getting the front bow speakers being driven by 200W with my current 800/8 should help. I may end up getting new M6s for the back cabins, but it will likely be the last thing I do.

Head Unit: I would really like the Fusion head unit....mostly because it is cool, a more modern head unit, and I just kind of trust Fusion more. Clarion seems to me to kind of be all over the place with their technology and what they want to do in the industry. (it can be hard to even find the appropriate updated website) The Clarion unit looks like it was made 10-15 years ago to me. With all that said, I think I am going to end up going with the Clarion 608. From what MLA said it is a solid unit. It will likely be easier from an installation perspective, but mostly it is a remote issue. I have been trying to think of creative ways of covering up my 3" with the Fusion rectangle remote that is 1/4" not wide enough, but I just don't think its going to be worth the hassle is worth the "cool" factor. It would also be an extra $200+ and buying a long cable, just to get one remote. With the Clarion I can use the existing remotes with an adapter and Creek mentioned and just lose my display which is kind of hard to read anyway. If I upgrade to the new remote, the hole should be the exact size I need.

[MLA]

background noise; Noise present when the engine is running, is typically ground-loop. Its got nothing to do with any component grounds, so ignore the "check yur grounds". It also not power cable and speaker wires bundled in a loom together. Its typically one component of the audio signal chain "seeing" a different voltage level then the other component. This difference can be a little a 10th of a volt difference.

Moving forward with new amps and media unit, just install the components and insure they ALL terminate at the same voltage source. This will prevent ground-loop, rather then needing to fix it in the old system.

Unless you intend the bow to be a completely isolated volume zone, then I prefer to have all my speaker powered about the same and gain-matched for balance. It makes little sense to have soo much untapped (200W rms potential) wattage, only to dial them down to balance smaller or lesser powered speakers.

woofer "enclosure" and gaps; Just an FYI. the "IB" woofer you are looking to go with IS NOT designed for a small, sealed enclosure. So those opening are not an issue for the woofer. The only concern would be if the woofer shared an airspace with a full-range speaker. In this case, the force off the back fo the woofer can impact the performance of the full-range speaker's mid-bass.

The current M6 is a complete new animal v's the old M series. The MX series got some minor changes to become the M3, but the old M series got a major upfit to become the new M6 line. So yeah, worth a look to upgrade to them.

The M608 is only a few years old, the bluetooth is modern as well as the rest of the tech. I like it and the MW1 remotes because they are the least invasive upgrades to fill the old remote and CMD opening. However, the M608 may not last much longer and could be the last single DIN/large face media unit we see from Clarion. The JL influence on Clarion is moving at a steady pace. New media units are coming that will more like the JL MM's, and wait till the new Clarion amps drop!

[dnadrifter]

background noise; Noise present when the engine is running, is typically ground-loop. Its got nothing to do with any component grounds, so ignore the "check yur grounds". It also not power cable and speaker wires bundled in a loom together. Its typically one component of the audio signal chain "seeing" a different voltage level then the other component. This difference can be a little a 10th of a volt difference.

Moving forward with new amps and media unit, just install the components and insure they ALL terminate at the same voltage source. This will prevent ground-loop, rather then needing to fix it in the old system.

By components...this is amp, head unit, bluetooth module? Currently the amps have a direct connection to the battery. The yellow wire (and red ignition and black ground) of the stereo goes through multiple harnesses and then toward the bow and over to the helm with all the other electrical. (current bluetooth module is spliced into head unit yellow wire)

So you would recommend running the yellow wire going to the head unit directly to the battery along with the amp power?

Do I have this correct?

[MLA]

Yes, amps head, etc. With 16 year old boat, its time to freshin up the amp/head unit cabling if its old. So if you make the proper terminations will everything along the audio signal path, you are preventing the noise from popping up in the new system, rather then "fixing" it within the old cabling.

I prefer to run my audio B+ though the master battery switch, if there is one, rather then direct to a battery. Either way, the head and amp need to draw from the same source. This does not mean a long run for head unit's ground and B+ back to the battery or switch. IT can be short to an amp or distribution block.

[dnadrifter]

Yes, amps head, etc. With 16 year old boat, its time to freshin up the amp/head unit cabling if its old. So if you make the proper terminations will everything along the audio signal path, you are preventing the noise from popping up in the new system, rather then "fixing" it within the old cabling.

I prefer to run my audio B+ though the master battery switch, if there is one, rather then direct to a battery. Either way, the head and amp need to draw from the same source. This does not mean a long run for head unit's ground and B+ back to the battery or switch. IT can be short to an amp or distribution block.

Overall the wiring is in good shape. It all looks stock and pretty good condition. Live in an overall dry climate. With that said I would definitely prefer to do things correctly going forward with the new stuff.

My master battery switch has two large cables coming out, one to the engine and one back to the helm I am assuming. I guess I could take the cover off and see if there is a post underneath I could access. Since you mention running the yellow B+ to a block or amp, I am thinking you also prefer the amps to go through the switch? Should the ground of the HU also be in common with the amps as right now it is also headed toward the helm with the red ignition wire.

[dnadrifter]

b
woofer "enclosure" and gaps; Just an FYI. the "IB" woofer you are looking to go with IS NOT designed for a small, sealed enclosure. So those opening are not an issue for the woofer. The only concern would be if the woofer shared an airspace with a full-range speaker. In this case, the force off the back fo the woofer can impact the performance of the full-range speaker's mid-bass.

Understood it isn't designed for small sealed enclosures. However, I guess I thought there needed to be some enclosure even if it is big. The "enclosure" or air space it is in now (storage under seat) is connected to the entire starboard side under cushions. However, very close to the sub under the seat there are some fairly large holes that pretty quickly lead to open air.

Not an issue? I guess I started wondering because when I put the seat cushion on and off (on top of the subs "enclosure") it seemed like it sounded better with the cushion on, creating a more "sealed" large enclosure. Made me wonder if doing things to eliminate the large enclosure going out into the "open" air would help further. Maybe it didn't sound better and I just thought it did.

[MLA]

An IB woofer needs at least X amount of air space, so more is ok. Smaller air space negatively impacts performance, more really does not. A woofer designed for a small sealed (small relative to an IB) has a target air space and it HAS to be sealed tight. A little less or a little greater is a way to "tune" the sealed enclosure to dictate the woofer's performance. Excessively small or grossly large will negatively impact the woofer's performance.

Seat UP/DOWN was less about sealed or not, and more about letting the air off the back of the woofer mix into the air off the front of the woofer. Closing the seat retained those air waves off the back, leaving the air waves off the front clean, so to speak.

[dnadrifter]

An IB woofer needs at least X amount of air space, so more is ok. Smaller air space negatively impacts performance, more really does not. A woofer designed for a small sealed (small relative to an IB) has a target air space and it HAS to be sealed tight. A little less or a little greater is a way to "tune" the sealed enclosure to dictate the woofer's performance. Excessively small or grossly large will negatively impact the woofer's performance.

Seat UP/DOWN was less about sealed or not, and more about letting the air off the back of the woofer mix into the air off the front of the woofer. Closing the seat retained those air waves off the back, leaving the air waves off the front clean, so to speak.

Thanks. Makes sense.

Still trying to figure out what I want to do to get power to the amp and HU. I guess the best way is probably to run 1/0 from the battery master switch, and from the ground, to a distribution block at the amp/HU area. Then go off that for two amps and the HU.

Right now I only have the orig 5AWG from MC going to the amp and as previously discussed the HU routes to the helm somewhere. I guess I was just hoping to avoid buying and working with the 1/0 stuff.