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2012 Ballast Timer problems with additional ballast???? Come on in.

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  • 2012 Ballast Timer problems with additional ballast???? Come on in.

    First, I just want to point out that this will take me several posts, and I will add and update as time allows.....

    In my quest to develop the perfect ballast system for my 2012 X25, I have run into a few speed bumps....... However, with several hours of research, and a lot of testing/mapping/figuring out the factory ballast system for 2012, I think I have cracked it.

    A few months ago, I started ordering parts for this system. At the time, I was under the assumption that my 2012 ballast system would have timers, just like my '11 X25. I was wrong about that, but we will get to that part later.....

    What I started with-
    1-Plug and play bags that I had from my 2011. $620.00
    2-A 3"x4"x6" project enclosure. $5.80
    3-6 single pole, double throw, changeover relays rated for 30amps each. $41.68
    4-2x 6 pin deutsche style connector sets (Male and Female) $13.22
    5-8x 2 Pin deutsche style connector sets (male and female) $31.10
    6-30x deutsche male pins, and 30x female. (Stamped style) $24.00
    7-50ft roll of 1/2" conduit. $28.00
    8-Plug and play ballast switch assy from MC. $124.00 from dealer (thought it would be a lot more than that, with the billet plate and everything....)
    9- Box of 50 12-16ga female slide connectors. (gold plated, and heat sealed) $48.00
    10-20' Roll of 1" ballast hose. $43.40
    11-4x 100' Rolls of 14ga wire (Red, blue, yellow, black) $43.90
    12- 3x Jabsco Ballast puppy pumps and 3 through hull fittings- $890.00

    Total invested so far- $1913.10. (As you know, the factory plug and play costs more than this, and you still have to buy the bags and fittings anyhow..... which is over $700.00 of the cost that I have included. Also, this will be a vastly better system.


    I first built myself a controller using the 6 relays to switch from tank pumps to bag pumps. I am using the OEM plug and play switch assy to control the relays. If I have time at some point, Maybe I will draw a wiring diagram for this.....
    Attached Files

  • #2
    The controller that I built is completely plug in and this system will look 100% OEM..... Not a single wire in the boat will be cut.

    There is a 6 pin connector next to the transmission that I used to tie into the factory ballast. All three factory pumps are in this connector. This connector is also downstream from the controller, which is where you want to tie in. I attached a pic of this below.

    Basically, in the normally closed position, the relays will just pass the power straight though the controller, back into the factory harness. This way, if my controller fails for some reason, the factory ballast will still work normally...... When the relays are energized (via the plug and play switches), power will be sent out of the controller to the three bag pumps using the factory ballast switches at the helm. The relays simply control which pump you are running..... Bag, or tank, depending on plug and play switch position.

    This is the factory ballast 6 pin. In a X25, it is located to the left of the vdrive transmission. it has 3 blue wires, and 3 yellow wires.
    Attached Files

    Comment


    • #3
      Looks great!! I love the deutsche. They have a cleaner look then weather paks.

      It might be too late but they only suggestion I would give you is going with water tight relays and breakers.

      If you are interested, the part numbers are in this first post and there are photos of the relays. They are the same ones MC uses.

      -Tim

      Making boomers great again!! Boomin'

      Comment


      • #4
        I didnt really intend to do a DIY post on this install, so I apologize that I do not have more photos. I will try to get more info and photos posted as I wrap this project up.

        I am currently much further into this project than I have posted so far, but I will catch up on this after I am finished.

        I know there is at least two other members that are looking for answers to the ballast timer problem..... so I will get to that ASAP. It took me a long time to figure it out, but I cracked it last night.

        Basically, you have to fool the OEM system into thinking there are two way ballast valves in the system. (the PNP valves have variable resistors in them to relay position information to the surf tab slave module, which then relays info to the BIG). I figured out the resistance values and tied a resistor in line of the sensor wires. This makes the computers think that the valves are working, and splits the timers for bags or tanks.

        I set up a temporary system for this last night, so I could test it out. It worked perfect.
        1-The timers would run for the Tanks.
        2- when the tanks were full, and timed out, I switched to bag fill, and the big screen displayed empty bags.
        3- start filling the bags, and the BIG uses new timers to fill them. It also displays bag levels on screen. (based off of pump revolutions)
        4-As far as the BIG is concerned, you now have timers for 6 ballast tanks instead of three. and if you use the PNP bags from wakemakers, the timers are set to fill these..... If you use bigger bags, you will have to cycle at the end, to get them full-full.

        More to come.......
        Last edited by FourFourty; 04-20-2012, 09:58 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by CantRepeat View Post
          Looks great!! I love the deutsche. They have a cleaner look then weather paks.

          It might be too late but they only suggestion I would give you is going with water tight relays and breakers.

          If you are interested, the part numbers are in this first post and there are photos of the relays. They are the same ones MC uses.

          http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/...ad.php?t=40934

          Thanks! Unfortunatly, It is too late. My project encloser is water tight though, and I mounted in a high and dry location...... hopefully it will be ok. If not, it wont be a big deal to change it over.

          Comment


          • #6
            As far as plumbing the bags goes.....

            1-Added three new pumps. I located the center pump right next to the OEM KGB pump. I installed the port and starboard pumps behind the back panels in the port and starboard storage lockers.

            2-installed 3 additional through-hulls to vent the bags. (PNP option does not vent the bags, which is stupid in my opinion)

            3-tied into the OEM bottom through-hull for the water supply.

            4-Ran fill lines into the port and starboard lockers, and the center line up under the observer seat. (all of us surf on the port side)

            5-fitted bags and plumbed in.

            Comment


            • #7
              I now see that Teamtalk admin has moved this post to a location where nobody will see it..... So I might not bother finishing it.

              Spend a half hour typing and get moved to the far reaches of the forum..... I might as well post it on wakeworld.


              If anyone has seen this thread and is looking for more info on how to get your ballast system to fill additional bags, PM me. I am not going to spend another hour or two, getting pictures and data for this post...........and then have it go unseen.

              Nobody is going to go to the "maintenance and refurb" section to try to figure this out for their 2012 boat...... sorry to say. It would be another story, if a ballast section was a main subforum....
              Last edited by FourFourty; 04-20-2012, 10:45 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by FourFourty View Post
                I now see that Teamtalk admin has moved this post to a location where nobody will see it..... So I might not bother finishing it.

                Spend a half hour typing and get moved to the far reaches of the forum..... I might as well post it on wakeworld.


                If anyone has seen this thread and is looking for more info on how to get your ballast system to fill additional bags, PM me. I am not going to spend another hour or two, getting pictures and data for this post...........and then have it go unseen.

                Nobody is going to go to the "maintenance and refurb" section to try to figure this out for their 2012 boat...... sorry to say. It would be another story, if a ballast section was a main subforum....
                It was moved into the ballast specific area because it's a topic on ballast. Maintenance and refurbishing are just the parent topic.

                I'm sure a lot of people looking for ballast info WILL see it.
                -Tim

                Making boomers great again!! Boomin'

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by CantRepeat View Post
                  It was moved into the ballast specific area because it's a topic on ballast. Maintenance and refurbishing are just the parent topic.

                  I'm sure a lot of people looking for ballast info WILL see it.

                  I understand your reasoning behind that....... however, using maint and refurb as the parent topic is completely unrelated to ballast. I have been a fairly active member for over a year, and I didnt know that there was a ballast section, because I never visit the maintenance and refurb section.

                  Lots of people with 2012 boats frequent the general discussion area, and info on a redesigned ballast system for 2012 MCs would give them info/ideas/solutions for their brand new boats.... They check in to the general section daily, but not the subforums. They do this because the general section is most active, and they are looking for the most recent news.

                  I dont think many members think to themselves- "I need ballast timer info for my new boat.... I bet thats in the refurbishing section of the forum"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'd like to see the sub forums in the Maint area set to default expanded. It would be nice to see them like the rest of the forums. But, I'm not sure what that would require.
                    -Tim

                    Making boomers great again!! Boomin'

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CantRepeat View Post
                      I'd like to see the sub forums in the Maint area set to default expanded. It would be nice to see them like the rest of the forums. But, I'm not sure what that would require.
                      I think that would be an EXCELLENT idea!!!

                      I am just really worried that nobody would see this info. It makes me not want to spend much time on it.....

                      I will keep my eyes open for questions regarding this, and try to forward the questions to here.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        FourFourty can you help me understand the benefits of your system a little better?
                        It looks like you saved money with your install vs purchasing the plug and play through MC-correct?
                        Can you run all 6 of pumps at the same time for faster fill times?
                        It looks like all your pumps use the same through hull to get water-does this limit how many pumps can run at once?
                        2006 Maristar 200 SS

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I found your post, but I've already rewired mine and it's already on a different post. I completely bypassed the factory system and hardwired my 3 pumps to relays using the factory fill/empty switches. I like your install better, I just didn't have any of the info on the PNP to trick the controller. Mine works, but my zero off wouldn't kick in because the system thought the tanks weren't full. I changed my configuration settings to say my boat has PNP, so now it will kick on zero off without trying to fill the tanks. The only problem I have now, is it also disables my attitude plate for some reason. If I want to lower than, I have to go in and change my config settings back.

                          I'm a little confused about how your system is filling? If you're tricking the system into thinking you have pnp, and you fill the factory, then switch over to fill the extra bags, why did you buy the extra pumps? If you have the extra pumps, why don't you run all 6 from the start to decrease your fill time?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Four forty, sent you a PM. Thx man.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rgardjr1 View Post
                              FourFourty can you help me understand the benefits of your system a little better?
                              It looks like you saved money with your install vs purchasing the plug and play through MC-correct?
                              Can you run all 6 of pumps at the same time for faster fill times?
                              It looks like all your pumps use the same through hull to get water-does this limit how many pumps can run at once?
                              Benefits-
                              1-Saved about $2k versus ordering with PNP.
                              2-Bags are vented
                              3-I wanted bags in a better place for surfing (behind/under observer seat), instead of up in the bow walkway....


                              Unfortunatly, the only way I could set it up with the factory switches/system, is to either fill tanks, or bags..... Not all 6 at the same time. You can only fill 3, and then switch over and fill the other three. Also, I am not sure the alternator would be happy running all 6 pumps at once....

                              I had tossed around the idea of doing dual water uptakes, but saw no benefit if I can only run three pumps at a time.

                              Originally posted by bcd View Post
                              I found your post, but I've already rewired mine and it's already on a different post. I completely bypassed the factory system and hardwired my 3 pumps to relays using the factory fill/empty switches. I like your install better, I just didn't have any of the info on the PNP to trick the controller. Mine works, but my zero off wouldn't kick in because the system thought the tanks weren't full. I changed my configuration settings to say my boat has PNP, so now it will kick on zero off without trying to fill the tanks. The only problem I have now, is it also disables my attitude plate for some reason. If I want to lower than, I have to go in and change my config settings back.

                              I'm a little confused about how your system is filling? If you're tricking the system into thinking you have pnp, and you fill the factory, then switch over to fill the extra bags, why did you buy the extra pumps? If you have the extra pumps, why don't you run all 6 from the start to decrease your fill time?
                              I did 6 pumps for two reasons- Reason #1- buying the three pumps was cheaper than buying three changeover valves. Reason #2- I like redundancy. Ballast pumps have a tough life as it is. I figured it would be better to run more pumps at a lower duty cycle.

                              I cant run all 6 at once, because the BIG is only set up to fill tanks OR bags, not both at the same time. I could have set the system to fill all 6, however, the timers wouldnt have worked correctly.

                              Are you just running piggy backs?? If so, is it too late to put your boat back to stock, or did you cut the wires? If you can go back to stock, I can show you a 1 hr install that will set you up perfectly, and you will retain all of your functionality.

                              All you will need is 1 toggle switch, and a LED interior lamp that is the same as what is in your boat. (I know the LED lamp thing sounds funny..... but, just trust me...... The resistor that is needed for the bag changeover sensing circuit is not easy to find. One of the LED interior lamps from the boat has the exact resistance needed to make the computer think you changed over to bag fill.....) 1,100 ohms.....

                              You would have to make sure your boat has a tab slave module though.... Would be handy to have wiring diagrams. I was able to get mine from my dealer.... I am not sure if your boat would be the same as a X25, and you dont have a BIG. So, it may take a little figuring to get you set up.

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