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Intermittent no crank, 89 MC Prostar, Ford 351 W

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  • bcl
    replied
    I see the answers now, but last night I couldn't. Old computer having one of its spells (or me). It has a Prestolite electronic conversion so no ballast resistor. I will check with the new owner and see if he has been seeing this. The boat has no lanyard, I assume the original or second owner removed it. When I said I replaced the neutral safety switch, first time it was just the switch alone, second time it was all the mechanical parts shown above. The ball, spring, lever, and the switch again ( I think). Didn't happen last year but I only used it 5 or so short times. Appreciate the replies. Thanks, Brian

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  • 88 PS190
    replied
    The safety lanyard does not participate with the cranking of the boat, any 1989 boat you can pull the safety lanyard off and crank the boat and if they have a ballast resistor like an 87 or 88 they will actually start with the safety lanyard removed!

    Similarly if you start the boat then disconnect the neutral switch you can drive all over the lake it just won't restart until you connect the neutral wire.

    The buzzer trick is really useful for doing this stuff yourself rig one up with some alligator clips and you can quickly connect and disconnect the part.

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  • waterlogged882
    replied
    Originally posted by bcl View Post
    Hello waterlogged882 and 88PS190 and everyone else.
    Hello

    Could not figure out how to reply last night. Now, waterlogged's original reply is gone.

    It is there.

    The boat will not crank. Turn the key and nothing happens. No click, no crank.

    Got it.

    I'm trying to remember your questions. Ski Dim calls the part a starter relay solenoid R130001 and it is on the back of the engine, driver's side.

    Starter relay. Got it.

    The problem then, roughly 5 years ago, was the contacts would stick together, boat starts, but starter kept running. Replacing it fixed that, and I took the old one apart and the contacts were not looking good, I assume it was original, at least 25 years old. Then a couple years later this new problem started, very intermittent.

    Got it.

    I have replaced the ignition switch, and the neutral safety switch, and then the whole neutral safety switch assembly.

    My suspicion is in the neutral start safety position. The sensor switch on the starboard side determines whether that pass-thru relay is open or closed. That is driven by the shift lever position on the port side. Has that linkage mechanism been lubricated ever? Is the shift cable coming from the MV-2 controller adjusted properly, so that the neutral position of the controller handle (via the shift cable) puts the shift lever in the correct neutral position at the lever's point of attachment?

    If you want to test the new one you put in, jump both wires onto one post of the switch. That jumps the wires together and bypasses the switch. Once you have tested, return to a working configuration. Do not leave it jumped.

    There is also a safety kill switch within this circuit. It too has to be fully closed with the lanyard inserted correctly. That can easily be an issue I would check first off when it happens again.

    To the neutral lever, if this condition happens again, go to the transmission and manually push the lever into the neutral position to seat it in the neutral position. See if that works. If so, the cable needs a tweak. Easy peasy.

    If the safety kill switch (separate from the neutral switch) has been by-passed, check that part of the jury-rigged setup to make sure it is not loose and opening the circuit.

    Fully charged battery with known good cables and clean end connections? It happens. OEM battery cables are due replacement, regardless.


    I wondered if the solenoid relay might have failed again, although it's only 5 years old and the boat has not had much use in that time.

    That too is a good possibility.

    88 PS190, thank you for the input, I understand it, hope the new owner Brian sees this. I will try to help him, being an electronic tech.
    Your mileage may vary.

    .
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Neutral Safety Lever01.jpg Views:	3 Size:	72.8 KB ID:	2714612

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  • bcl
    replied
    Hello waterlogged882 and 88PS190 and everyone else. Could not figure out how to reply last night. Now, waterlogged's original reply is gone. The boat will not crank. Turn the key and nothing happens. No click, no crank. I'm trying to remember your questions. Ski Dim calls the part a starter relay solenoid R130001 and it is on the back of the engine, driver's side. The problem then, roughly 5 years ago, was the contacts would stick together, boat starts, but starter kept running. Replacing it fixed that, and I took the old one apart and the contacts were not looking good, I assume it was original, at least 25 years old. Then a couple years later this new problem started, very intermittent. I have replaced the ignition switch, and the neutral safety switch, and then the whole neutral safety switch assembly. I wondered if the solenoid relay might have failed again, although it's only 5 years old and the boat has not had much use in that time. 88 PS190, thank you for the input, I understand it, hope the new owner Brian sees this. I will try to help him, being an electronic tech.

    Leave a comment:


  • 88 PS190
    replied
    So you have a Schrödinger's cat electrical problem. Basically when it doesn't work the act of attempting to troubleshoot why it doesn't work fixes the problem.

    First and foremost my guess is that you have a bad wire crimp somewhere between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. That can often give you the scenario where you bust out a multimeter and everything test OK and then you try to start the boat and voile the thing works. Then a bit later it doesn't work and you go to test and it does again.

    So I think the first method I would recommend is using an audible test buzzer. Just get a cheap 12V buzzer from amazon and then you're going to use this to go between somewhere that should have voltage to a ground.

    I would probably start if it was my boat by connecting this to the signal wire to the starter solenoid and then to ground. Now what you're doing is go boating till you get a condition where you turn the key and the boat doesn't start. This will give you one of 2 scenarios either you turn the key and the buzzer sounds and the boat doesn't start. Or you turn the key and the buzzer doesn't sound and the boat doesn't start. It will of course buzz and start if everything is working properly.

    So now we wait till you get a no-start and observe if it buzzes or not. If you get a no start no buzz then you want to go upstream from the solenoid and install the buzzer on the input side of the neutral switch and again to a ground. Run the boat until the condition occurs now if you have a no start no buzz we have moved up stream and we go up the wiring to the ignition switch.

    Now if you have a condition of Buzzing but no starting then we go downstream and that tells us the switch or the solenoid it self has an issue.

    Hope that makes sense, we use the buzzer so we are able to remotely verify the condition in the moment the problem occurs.​

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  • waterlogged882
    replied
    Originally posted by bcl View Post
    Hello all, very intermittent problem with this boat, won't crank.

    Define "will not crank." - 1) Does not turn over at all (dead) or 2) will turn over and not start?

    It's hard to troubleshoot because it is so intermittent. I am an electronic tech so I know what to do,

    but generally by the time you try anything it cranks and runs.

    Several years ago, I replaced the starter solenoid for a different problem,

    That actual solenoid or the starter relay? There is a difference.

    the boat would crank and start but the starter kept running.

    Resolved. correct?

    Also intermittent, but when I took the original (I assume) solenoid (see above) off and took it apart, the contacts were not looking good. That solved that problem,

    and then a couple years later, it started this "no crank" symptom.

    Not start or not turn over?

    Hard to believe that the solenoid failed after 3 or 4 years, when the original was nearly 30.

    Very possible.

    I changed the ignition switch, still happened.

    Usually, if you just move the gear shift forward and back a few times, or wait a while, it cranks and starts.

    Poor assumption because that characteristic is caused by an open start circuit. Several things that can cause that.

    I changed the neutral safety switch, no help, changed the whole assembly,

    What whole assembly? The neutral safety switch is one single pass-thru relay switch. It is either open or closed. Shift cable position (and shift lever at the transmission) can easily be the culprit. Shift cable can need adjusting, etc.

    haven't driven much in the last few years, so I thought it was fixed. Sold it this summer, and it happened to the new owner a week ago. Just trying to help him out, told him to join this forum.
    Thanks, Brian. New owner is Brian too, maybe he'll see this.​.
    ​Help me out here please.

    .
    Last edited by waterlogged882; 09-22-2022, 03:42 PM.

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  • bcl
    started a topic Intermittent no crank, 89 MC Prostar, Ford 351 W

    Intermittent no crank, 89 MC Prostar, Ford 351 W

    Hello all, very intermittent problem with this boat, won't crank. It's hard to troubleshoot because it is so intermittent. I am an electronic tech so I know what to do, but generally by the time you try anything it cranks and runs. Several years ago, I replaced the starter solenoid for a different problem, the boat would crank and start but the starter kept running. Also intermittent, but when I took the original (I assume) solenoid off and took it apart, the contacts were not looking good. That solved that problem, and then a couple years later, it started this "no crank" symptom. Hard to believe that the solenoid failed after 3 or 4 years, when the original was nearly 30. I changed the ignition switch, still happened. Usually, if you just move the gear shift forward and back a few times, or wait a while, it cranks and starts. I changed the neutral safety switch, no help, changed the whole assembly, haven't driven much in the last few years, so I thought it was fixed. Sold it this summer, and it happened to the new owner a week ago. Just trying to help him out, told him to join this forum.
    Thanks, Brian. New owner is Brian too, maybe he'll see this.
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