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Chrysler 360 in a 94 205???

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  • #46
    A shoot out on this test has been done on engine masters
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sQJPZYSoUI

    On this subject though I have to weigh in.
    Take it for whats its worth; Im a calibration engineer. and work at the OEM level "tuning" engines.

    Ok so that's out of the way.

    First off, please don't compare a new modern carb to really what is the first iteration of mass produced EFI, the TBI. Simply not a fair comparison. I read a comment that it was done for emmissions. Yes, duh. When you have a tip out, or go into decel how do you do a fuel cut off on a carb? You dont, you are pulling fuel through so its wasted. There are other things to mention that are small that add up to a large amount, but we wont go there. Emissions drive everything we do. Making big power is easy. Making things drive awesome is easy. Doing both those while maintaining emissions is why OEMs hire so many engineers and why things cost so much.

    Performance--> watch the video. Ill say that much. Now with really large engines like in dragsters, Carb does have its advantages. You can argue fuel atomization is better and getting a better burn at WOT with a carb. Also, at high rpms and really high mass flow rates of air, EFI is essentially just hosing as much fuel as possible, so why not carb it. Also at very high rpms you need better tech to "see" the rpms accurately. This is cost and complexity that doesn't add much value. Jets are also cheaper than new injectors.

    That being said, if you think mechanical adjustments are more accurate than a processor, you are crazy. When I calibrated transient fueling on a modern engine (accel pump and correlated jet on your carb), I have full control of EVERYTHING. Based on map and rate of tip in, I can predetermine the amount of fuel the engine is receiving. Im also compensating with how hot/cold the engine is and theoretical fuel density and air density. How are you possibly doing that better with a carb? In my world, I can make that feature work like a carb but taking all my tables/maps and just throwing one value in (ok not nearly the same because your feed rate on the accel pump is based on throttle tip in, but you cant really compensate for other factors like I can). That being said, I realize the control software I deal with is way more complex than off the shelf EFI from holley or other guys. Even then though, they still have compensations tables/factors that help you adjust for different variables. Its simply not there on a carb.

    If you think a carb is better than EFI then you must be comparing a well calibrated carb to a poorly calibrated EFI system.

    Seriously, who wants to bring a scan tool or laptop to the lake with them? That's a nice setup you have though.
    lol what the hell does this even mean or imply? Do you carry a carb rebuilt kit, cleaner, and jets with you on the boat?


    Has anyone on here ever attempted to install a Chrysler 360 marine engine into a Pro Star 205?
    No
    I've found one that has a Chevy 350 with a cracked block. I'm really a Mopar guy and thought it would be unique and cool to have one in a 205. Is it possible to do and will it bolt up with a different bell housing to the trans? Yes

    Be honest though, you arnt going to do this. Get a new block, get the boat fixed, and get sking. Keep the resale value; get on the water quicker; and save your money. IF you really want a mopar powered boat they are around. Keep looking and pick up one when you find it! Lots of prostars around with special ordered engines. These will maintain value, because you never actually keep the boat your whole like you think you will now. You will get lowballed to death when you resell and nothing is original!
    Last edited by Roman; 07-20-2017, 01:01 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by CantRepeat View Post
      You already tried to denied my knowledge when you said I have no idea how to build an engine. Then you found out otherwise.

      Computers and software are essential when dealing with EFI, after all there is a computer running the system. If you want to step into modern times and work with new tech then you have to get the systems that allow you to do so. Once you do and understand how to tune EFIs they are simply the best system out there.

      Using the seat dyno to say you could make more HP with a carb on my 383 is just plain BS. You don't have any of the specs on this engine. The cam alone says you can't.

      I could keep arguing with you and say this and that. I know all I need to know and can write programs for efi. You've shown me nothing by sending me a picture. You said that you used 454 injectors? What size and cc of fuel do they flow? Major engine builders always choose a carb for good reasons. I don't go off of seat of the pants. Dyno numbers mean nothing, if it's not useable. I don't have to have the specs on your engine to know those are weak numbers for a 383. What type of dyno did you use? I'm going to leave it here and just stop with all the back and forth. You know what you know and I know what I know. Enough said right there....

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by CantRepeat View Post
        OK, so performance aside.

        Let's talk about what you really want to do here and why.

        I believe the cool factor in putting a Chrysler in an older MC, like Aric's Father's 85 would be a sweet build. But it seems like you're trying to save money. Do you already have the 360? If that is the case, then you probably need to get the price of long block GM and compare that with the price of the parts needed to get the 360 into the boat.
        I think it'd be different and unique. Money isn't a big deal. I had been look at an 84 to get and put the mopar in, but I've never heard of a 205 with one. To be honest I have a 360 at my disposal and could use it. Honestly though, they are tit for tat on long block prices. I've found the parts that I need, too. I apologize on getting a little argumentative earlier. We both seem to know quite a bit. There's no need in me acting like a child, lol.

        Comment


        • #49
          Chrysler 360 in a 94 205???

          Hey OP, look. I am not a Mopar fan at all. The only one I'd even consider owning would have a Cummins under the hood. That having been said, I like your idea. Putting a Mopar engine in a prostar is a unique idea, and I like unique. Forget the argument about making financial sense. Case and point...there's a well known group of guys on here that retrofitted and installed a GMC Duramax Diesel into a X80. It generated a lot of excitement and enthusiasm on this forum. It was/is a seriously cool project. However the only financial sense that I see it made for them is the promotional write off for their business. What you're proposing, at least to me, isn't much different. So, I say go for it; create a tread, post pics, and I'll even subscribe to it!


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          Joe

          1998 MariStar 225VRS, 350ci LT1

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Keith2230 View Post
            I feel like Can't Repeat can't take all all the heat in this thread because your comments here are just not accurate. Carbs can deliver fuel very precisely but they cannot adjust for atmospheric pressure or changes in fuel and air temperature. The main advantage of a carb over EFI is it's simplicity. I'd bet these tuners of which you speak don't understand or don't want to mess with the complexity of EFI, don't care about fuel economy and don't mind messing with the carb tune regularly to keep it perfect (or are calling it close enough). The best you could hope to get from a carb tune is to match the performance of a properly configured EFI system. Once one of the variable changes the EFI will auto adjust and the carb performance will continue to run the same with the now sub optimal parameters.

            You want Mopar in your boat and a carb, I get it and say go for it. Sounds like you have strong opinions and you'll be very happy and proud of it when you get it done. Good luck sir!
            There are actually many options to allow you to adjust a carb on the fly. Also, most people stay around the same lakes and therefor need no adjustment. EFI has it's limits as do carbs. EFI can only adjust so far and sometimes you have to increase the injector size. Tell me why multiple builders of pro motorcycles, drag cars, round track cars, boats, etc... all swap efi systems for carbs? A properly tuned carb will deliver linear power and run smooth as glass. I find that people shy from carbs, because they have no tuning knowledge of them and simply don't understand the tuning. I shouldn't have sounded so pushy on my opinion. Sorry. I'd love it and think it'd be cool.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by SpeedRacer0125 View Post
              I could keep arguing with you and say this and that. I know all I need to know and can write programs for efi. You've shown me nothing by sending me a picture. You said that you used 454 injectors? What size and cc of fuel do they flow? Major engine builders always choose a carb for good reasons. I don't go off of seat of the pants. Dyno numbers mean nothing, if it's not useable. I don't have to have the specs on your engine to know those are weak numbers for a 383. What type of dyno did you use? I'm going to leave it here and just stop with all the back and forth. You know what you know and I know what I know. Enough said right there....
              LB/HR and they are 80 lb injectors and I run them at 18 psi. There used to be a set of HO SBC injectors that were 65 lbs that went in cop cars that are no longer made. The other choice were factory SBC that flowed even less then the BBC injectors.

              There's a ton of tuning that goes into a custom tune and a lot that you can do with an ECM.

              Good luck on your project. Let us know if we can help.
              Attached Files
              -Tim

              Making boomers great again!! Boomin'

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Roman View Post
                A shoot out on this test has been done on engine masters
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sQJPZYSoUI

                On this subject though I have to weigh in.
                Take it for whats its worth; Im a calibration engineer. and work at the OEM level "tuning" engines.

                Ok so that's out of the way.

                First off, please don't compare a new modern carb to really what is the first iteration of mass produced EFI, the TBI. Simply not a fair comparison. I read a comment that it was done for emmissions. Yes, duh. When you have a tip out, or go into decel how do you do a fuel cut off on a carb? You dont, you are pulling fuel through so its wasted. There are other things to mention that are small that add up to a large amount, but we wont go there. Emissions drive everything we do. Making big power is easy. Making things drive awesome is easy. Doing both those while maintaining emissions is why OEMs hire so many engineers and why things cost so much.

                Performance--> watch the video. Ill say that much. Now with really large engines like in dragsters, Carb does have its advantages. You can argue fuel atomization is better and getting a better burn at WOT with a carb. Also, at high rpms and really high mass flow rates of air, EFI is essentially just hosing as much fuel as possible, so why not carb it. Also at very high rpms you need better tech to "see" the rpms accurately. This is cost and complexity that doesn't add much value. Jets are also cheaper than new injectors.

                That being said, if you think mechanical adjustments are more accurate than a processor, you are crazy. When I calibrated transient fueling on a modern engine (accel pump and correlated jet on your carb), I have full control of EVERYTHING. Based on map and rate of tip in, I can predetermine the amount of fuel the engine is receiving. Im also compensating with how hot/cold the engine is and theoretical fuel density and air density. How are you possibly doing that better with a carb? In my world, I can make that feature work like a carb but taking all my tables/maps and just throwing one value in (ok not nearly the same because your feed rate on the accel pump is based on throttle tip in, but you cant really compensate for other factors like I can). That being said, I realize the control software I deal with is way more complex than off the shelf EFI from holley or other guys. Even then though, they still have compensations tables/factors that help you adjust for different variables. Its simply not there on a carb.

                If you think a carb is better than EFI then you must be comparing a well calibrated carb to a poorly calibrated EFI system.


                lol what the hell does this even mean or imply? Do you carry a carb rebuilt kit, cleaner, and jets with you on the boat?

                Has anyone on here ever attempted to install a Chrysler 360 marine engine into a Pro Star 205?
                No
                I've found one that has a Chevy 350 with a cracked block. I'm really a Mopar guy and thought it would be unique and cool to have one in a 205. Is it possible to do and will it bolt up with a different bell housing to the trans? Yes

                Be honest though, you arnt going to do this. Get a new block, get the boat fixed, and get sking. Keep the resale value; get on the water quicker; and save your money. IF you really want a mopar powered boat they are around. Keep looking and pick up one when you find it! Lots of prostars around with special ordered engines. These will maintain value, because you never actually keep the boat your whole like you think you will now. You will get lowballed to death when you resell and nothing is original!
                I agree with you on some points, especially on a stock style system. Emissions are not of concern to me. On one point you made....The fuel is cut off when you cut the vacuum by letting off the throttle. There are ways regardless what we are taught to make a carb run really great. I can listen to an engine all the way through from idle to full throttle rpms and tell you what an engine is doing or you can hook up dyno equipment to a carbed motor to fine tune it. Like I said I agree, but yet I disagree. EFI only runs well when all the electronic systems are working properly. If one parameter is wrong or a sensor in the complex system quits functioning properly, you have chaos. All systems have their draw backs and opinions are different on both. What you're saying is like saying that a robot is better than a human. Electronics have there limitations and create big $$$ problems for nothing. The robot is great for what it is, but it's electronics can meet a limit. I hope that I don't sound like I don't think you know what you're talking about, because I know that you do. I understand what you're saying and agree with a lot of it.

                Lol, I'm actually that guy that does bring all that with me.

                I'm going to do it and enjoy things like this. I love a challenge and think it'd be unique. I love engines and everything about them. Thanks for your info!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by jsturvey View Post
                  Hey OP, look. I am not a Mopar fan at all. The only one I'd even consider owning would have a Cummins under the hood. That having been said, I like your idea. Putting a Mopar engine in a prostar is a unique idea, and I like unique. Forget the argument about making financial sense. Case and point...there's a well known group of guys on here that retrofitted and installed a GMC Duramax Diesel into a X80. It generated a lot of excitement and enthusiasm on this forum. It was/is a seriously cool project. However the only financial sense that I see it made for them is the promotional write off for their business. What you're proposing, at least to me, isn't much different. So, I say go for it; create a tread, post pics, and I'll even subscribe to it!


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                  It's really not much more to it than replacing the 350 TBI price wise. I understand that a lot will frown upon it and some will like it. Heck, I'd even say let's drop a Hemi in it, if I liked EFI. I never said that it'd be stock either for all the guys arguing with me on here. That X80 was a cool idea and I like it. A diesel makes anything fun, haha! I'll definitely do a thread and keep you in mind. Thanks for the positivity and support!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by CantRepeat View Post
                    LB/HR and they are 80 lb injectors and I run them at 18 psi. There used to be a set of HO SBC injectors that were 65 lbs that went in cop cars that are no longer made. The other choice were factory SBC that flowed even less then the BBC injectors.

                    There's a ton of tuning that goes into a custom tune and a lot that you can do with an ECM.

                    Good luck on your project. Let us know if we can help.
                    See you do know what you're talking about and I got it out of you. I really know a lot and can tell when someone is knowledgeable. I understand both EFI and carbs. I seriously have a dual degree in programming and electronics tech. I just like to stir people up and get them to show it. I know that's terrible, but it's fun. I'll keep you updated and thanks for being a cool dude!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I'm really wanting to do a swap and will keep everyone updated. I just really like the cool factor of it. I want to apologize to everyone, because I honestly love to burn people's biscuits for fun. I know, as I stated in the above comment, that we all have knowledge in our own areas. I just wanted to stir up some people. I respect y'all and your comments. Y'all have a blessed day and I'm sorry it got so heated! We're all brothers and sisters on here and that wasn't cool. Thanks to everyone for your info.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        https://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk...ad.php?t=74411
                        Attached Files
                        /spĂ´rk/
                        a spoon-shaped eating utensil with short tines at the tip

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Put an LS engine in it. > end thread

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by SpeedRacer0125 View Post
                            On one point you made....The fuel is cut off when you cut the vacuum by letting off the throttle. There are ways regardless what we are taught to make a carb run really great.


                            EFI only runs well when all the electronic systems are working properly. If one parameter is wrong or a sensor in the complex system quits functioning properly, you have chaos. All systems have their draw backs and opinions are different on both. What you're saying is like saying that a robot is better than a human. Electronics have there limitations and create big $$$ problems for nothing. The robot is great for what it is, but it's electronics can meet a limit. I hope that I don't sound like I don't think you know what you're talking about, because I know that you do. I understand what you're saying and agree with a lot of it.

                            Lol, I'm actually that guy that does bring all that with me.

                            I'm going to do it and enjoy things like this. I love a challenge and think it'd be unique. I love engines and everything about them. Thanks for your info!
                            Yes in theory but a carb with the plates closed its still pulling some air through the carb right? In a power-sports applications I agree this is not an issue really.

                            EFI not running right because a parameter is off is equivalent to the jetting being off somewhere in the carb. Not a fair comparison. Lots of people dont have their carbs tuned properly. I doubt mine is optimal, because outside of the vacuum guage tuning and looking at the plugs, without a wide-band I dont know how else to adjust

                            Sensors breaking/skewing is a pain yes. At the OEM level we can deal with some sensors not running as everything is cross checked/calculated with other sensors, and someone calculated theoretical values that we use instead, or cross check against to declare a sensor failure. But really how many sensors do you really need? At the level mega squirt is at and other off the shelf EFI systems, the sensors ARE needed to make sure things are running properly. So if your sensor is shifted due to production tolerance, you do have to re-calibrate things I guess. But at the same time, If you are running something like an LSX, your ignition has to be electronic regardless and you will be running multiple sensors, even with a carb. Its all give and take.

                            Its fine to like something that is purely mechanical, but your efficiency is naturally capped lower. Easier to diagnose...sure, if you are familiar with carbs and distributors.

                            You just sound like someone who likes a purely mechanical system. Nothing wrong with that!

                            Goodluck with your project though! I still think you should just throw another 350 in there and get on the water. You are killing resale otherwise!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by SpeedRacer0125 View Post
                              I'm really wanting to do a swap and will keep everyone updated. I just really like the cool factor of it. I want to apologize to everyone, because I honestly love to burn people's biscuits for fun. I know, as I stated in the above comment, that we all have knowledge in our own areas. I just wanted to stir up some people. I respect y'all and your comments. Y'all have a blessed day and I'm sorry it got so heated! We're all brothers and sisters on here and that wasn't cool. Thanks to everyone for your info.
                              Well, if that is what you enjoy then might I suggest you take your immature passive aggressive behavior over to wakeworld. They really enjoy that kind of stuff.
                              -Tim

                              Making boomers great again!! Boomin'

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I saw that boat and would've bought it. He never answered my IM. That would be a mean tug!

                                Comment

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