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94 PS 190 350 TBI RPMs at wide open throttle

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  • 94 PS 190 350 TBI RPMs at wide open throttle

    In 2015, I created a topic with the same title as this topic. It grew to contain good advice from JimN, Larry Engelbert -- Director of Customer Service at Indmar -- via posting of advice he emailed me, and others. It contained test and performance history on my boat. It became the most viewed topic of about 60 I've started on Team Talk.

    Since I've recently noticed a further issue with my boat on this subject, I posted a new comment to the topic the morning of Monday, August 20 about the same time Team Talk was being spammed with many spam topics. The topic had disappeared from Team Talk by mid-morning on Monday. Apparently, my thread got caught up in the purge of that junk. I'm told by Mastercraft it is unrestorable. Note to self: Do not rely on Team Talk going forward for storage of information about my boat.

    Fortunately, I recovered almost all of the text of the topic from google's cache in an August 13, 2018 version of the topic. I'm posting it as a 37 page pdf. It does not contain the photos. I may add back those separately. I believe it contains all of the posting up to my comment earlier this week and any responses to that.

    When I have time shortly, I will reconstruct and post the comment I posted earlier this week. I wanted to get the past comments posted now as this pdf because I saw someone in another topic looking for the missing one.

    94 PS 190 350 TBI RPMs at wide open throttle [Archive] - TeamTalk.pdf
    1994 ProStar 190, 350 TBI, 1:1, ACME 541, PTM Edge VR-140

  • #2
    Cool. Thanks.
    If its not a competition ski boat, its always second best.

    2008 MasterCraft X14, LY6, 400 HP
    1994 MasterCraft ProStar 205 (SOLD)

    Check out MasterCraft Buckeye Bash on Facebook!

    Comment


    • #3
      Since someone is looking for the information in the lost thread about MAP sensor location and orientation, I'm repeating here a post in which I described how I combined suggestions from JimN and Larry Engelbert. I'm also loading the photo, which is not contained in the pdf of the whole topic. As I described in another comment, I used packaged transparent fuel hose from Advance Auto so I could visualize any fluid accumulation. I recently replaced it because I wanted to temporarily change the hose to one with a t-fitting for a vacuum test and noticed it had discolored a fair amount and stiffened some in three years. The fuel hose I've installed is 1/4 inch inner diameter (Advance Auto Part No. Part # DW-744).

      BEGIN OLD COMMENT

      lake weir skier 10-08-2015, 06:02 PM

      The photo below shows the new installation for my MAP sensor to help prevent fluid
      accumulation and to prevent any accumulated fluid from damaging the MAP sensor.

      The MAP sensor vacuum hose rises off the throttle body attachment point to a higher point
      where it is zip tied to another hose. It then goes down below the MAP sensor and
      approaches from below. The MAP sensor, which is inverted relative to its original
      installation, is zip tied to a metal bracket of some kind that is rigid and attached to the
      engine (not the bracket to which it was originally attached with a screw and nut).

      I put 3/8 inch spring clamps at each end of the vacuum hose to help prevent leaks.

      I haven't seen any fluid accumulation since I went with this setup. I haven't experienced
      sudden RPM reduction at WOT since I replaced the MAP sensor and protected the new MAP
      sensor with this setup.

      END OLD COMMENT

      Click image for larger version

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      Last edited by lake weir skier; 08-23-2018, 09:32 AM.
      1994 ProStar 190, 350 TBI, 1:1, ACME 541, PTM Edge VR-140

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks sir.
        If its not a competition ski boat, its always second best.

        2008 MasterCraft X14, LY6, 400 HP
        1994 MasterCraft ProStar 205 (SOLD)

        Check out MasterCraft Buckeye Bash on Facebook!

        Comment


        • #5
          I've recently confirmed what to me is a significant change from 2015.

          I posted in the original post in 2015:

          "WOT with two adult occupants, a half tank of gas, no ballast, and nothing towed: 4,320
          RPM (measured with tach in new Innova digital timing light) and 43 mph (measured with
          Garmin GPS)"

          A few days ago, using the same test equipment and loading conditions on the boat as in 2015, I got 41 mph and 4,070 RPM. It went to 4,120 for a few seconds, and then settled at 4,070. That was in calm water in two runs in opposite directions. The 250 RPM loss in three years, and the fact that it is flirting with going below 4,000 RPM at WOT, bothers me.

          Looking at what I've changed since 2015, I know I've had the fuel shut-off at the valve above the fuel tank, so I'm going to make sure that's fully open. I replaced the fuel pump last year. At the time of installation, I confirmed the new pump met pressure specs through lake testing. I'm going to re-test the fuel pressure. I haven't ever tested the new MAP sensor I installed in 2015. I'm going to test it, including testing the voltage output at known levels of vacuum. I also replaced all of the ignition wires earlier this year after finding unstable resistance on one of the original plug wires. The new wires are the stock Taylor wires from Indmar. Not related, of course, but I also replaced the starter. Other than that, it's been normal maintenance, including replacement of the distributor cap and rotor.

          I've been monitoring compression for several years and recently did a leak down test. I'm going to move that data over here from another topic shortly.

          EDIT: Forgot to say that earlier this year I replaced the packing rope in the stuffing box on the drive shaft.
          Last edited by lake weir skier; 08-23-2018, 12:14 PM.
          1994 ProStar 190, 350 TBI, 1:1, ACME 541, PTM Edge VR-140

          Comment


          • #6
            Clean out your spark arrestor screen.

            Also reverify engine shaft alignment and it doesnt hurt to pull shaft and make sure nothing is stuck in the strut.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 88 PS190 View Post
              Clean out your spark arrestor screen.

              Also reverify engine shaft alignment and it doesnt hurt to pull shaft and make sure nothing is stuck in the strut.
              The flame arrestor was pretty dirty when I bought the boat in 2013. I spent about $30 on carb cleaner getting it in top condition back then and have kept it that way since. For the first time, earlier this year, I checked the propeller drive shaft coupling alignment as best I could. It was within spec as best I could tell. I checked it with boat in the water. If I recall correctly, it was a bit of an issue keeping things stable while I rotated it. Probably worth re-checking it if I don't find a problem elsewhere.
              1994 ProStar 190, 350 TBI, 1:1, ACME 541, PTM Edge VR-140

              Comment


              • #8
                For each cylinder, in order, here are the compression test pressures in psi for June 2015 and July 2018, and the leak down percentages for August 2018. The compression tests were dry with the engine warmed. The leak down testing was at a test pressure of 80 psi with the engine warm.


                No. 1 197, 180, 8
                No. 3 198, 185, 4
                No. 5 192, 190, 6
                No. 7 180, 168, 13
                No. 2 200, 194, 5
                No. 4 205, 200, 3
                No. 6 202, 198, 5
                No. 8 200, 192, 4


                Larry Engelbert, at Indmar, sent me an excerpt from " the GM manual" that says "The minimum compression in any one cylinder should not be less than 70 percent of the highest cylinder. No cylinder should read less than 690 kPa (100 psi)." My worst cylinder is 84 percent, and all my cylinders are way above 100 psi.

                He said leak down worse than 20 percent is considered excessive. I've seen an FAA circular that says a piston in a cylinder worse than 25 percent has to be pulled for inspection. My worst is 13 percent.

                Still, I wonder about the right bank running with better numbers than the left bank and what appear to be generally lower numbers in 2018 compared to 2015 for the left bank. I have compression numbers further back than this. While No. 7 was up in 2015 for unexplained reasons, if you look at it since 2013, it has been about where it is now except for the blip up in 2015.
                1994 ProStar 190, 350 TBI, 1:1, ACME 541, PTM Edge VR-140

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lake weir skier View Post
                  Probably worth re-checking it if I don't find a problem elsewhere.
                  Why I mentioned the strut, my older boat was stalling going into gear, if you went a bit hard and got some throttle it would go but really reduced top end. Thought it was fuel related/falling on its face, ended up finding a section of poly rope in the boat, brother said his dog chewed a mooring line. Found same mooring line in my strut.

                  I would also try cheating your timing, even if set w/ a light, mark the distributor and try just a smidge of advance/retard from where it is and see if the top end changes. If not put it back.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 88 PS190 View Post
                    Why I mentioned the strut, my older boat was stalling going into gear, if you went a bit hard and got some throttle it would go but really reduced top end. Thought it was fuel related/falling on its face, ended up finding a section of poly rope in the boat, brother said his dog chewed a mooring line. Found same mooring line in my strut.

                    I would also try cheating your timing, even if set w/ a light, mark the distributor and try just a smidge of advance/retard from where it is and see if the top end changes. If not put it back.
                    Somebody on my compression thread also brought up the importance of paying attention to that alignment.

                    This is the timing I reported when I tested in 2015. I have not ever adjusted it. The spec I have from Indmar for base timing is 10 degrees BTDC, so I was already 2 degrees from that.

                    Note : Validity of timing mark location confirmed with piston stop tool.
                    Base timing in service mode at 1,000 RPM:

                    12 degrees BTDC measured with new Innova
                    timing light

                    2,000 RPM: 32 degrees BTDC (Base plus 20 degrees advance added)

                    3,000 RPM: 42 degrees BTDC (Base plus 30 degrees advance added)

                    4,330 RPM at WOT: 42 degrees BTDC (Base plus 30 degrees advance added)
                    1994 ProStar 190, 350 TBI, 1:1, ACME 541, PTM Edge VR-140

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I just tested my MAP sensor with the key on and known vacuum levels applied to it with a Lisle 75000 hand vacuum pump. I'm especially confident in the vacuum readings on the pump's integrated gauge since I first tested it in parallel with my OTC vacuum gauge and my Winters +/- 1.5 percent accuracy vacuum gauge.

                      Gray wire: 5.0 volts

                      Black wire: 0.0 volts

                      Green wire (three trials):

                      0 inches of Hg: 4.9, 4.9, 4.9 volts

                      5 inches of Hg: 3.9, 3.8, 3.9 volts

                      10 inches of Hg: 3.0, 3.0, 3.0 volts

                      15 inches of Hg: 2.2, 2.2, 2.2 volts

                      20 inches of Hg: 1.3, 1.3, 1.3 volts

                      These voltages look very consistent and pretty much in line with what I see for GM 5.7 liter engine MAP sensors on auto diagnostic websites:

                      MAP Sensor Test (P0106, P0107, P0108) (GM 4.3L, 5.0L, 5.7L) (see Step 6)

                      Manifold Absolute Pressure MAP Sensors (see chart)
                      Last edited by lake weir skier; 08-26-2018, 06:46 PM.
                      1994 ProStar 190, 350 TBI, 1:1, ACME 541, PTM Edge VR-140

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The one variable not mentioned is occupant and driver mass

                        Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
                        sigpic...A bad day water skiing still beats a good day at work...1995 Pro Star 205....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mikeg205 View Post
                          The one variable not mentioned is occupant and driver mass

                          Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
                          Unfortunately, I weighed the same 220 pounds in 2015 and 2018. I'm not allowed to know my girlfriend's weight, but I think it too was about the same in 2015 and 2018.

                          I didn't record cloud conditions.
                          1994 ProStar 190, 350 TBI, 1:1, ACME 541, PTM Edge VR-140

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Same Prop? When you changed the fuel pump, as you swapped the lower fittings, did you check the very fine screen in the bottom fitting for any "fuzz or wadding"? Just curious if logged the temperature of 2015/2018, was 15 cooler?

                            Did you try the run at 10° timing? Do you use and valve cleaner or fuel treatment? Having a history with Porsche, I'm a fan of Chevron Techron for keeping intake valves clean and fuel system in pretty good shape for track cars. I use in the boat as well, I change the oil after the tank of fuel with Techron is depleted.
                            1993 25th Anniversary Limited ProStar 190, #17

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bret View Post
                              Same Prop? When you changed the fuel pump, as you swapped the lower fittings, did you check the very fine screen in the bottom fitting for any "fuzz or wadding"? Just curious if logged the temperature of 2015/2018, was 15 cooler?

                              Did you try the run at 10° timing? Do you use and valve cleaner or fuel treatment? Having a history with Porsche, I'm a fan of Chevron Techron for keeping intake valves clean and fuel system in pretty good shape for track cars. I use in the boat as well, I change the oil after the tank of fuel with Techron is depleted.
                              Yes, same Acme 541 prop.

                              I've checked the screen in the past and found nothing in it. Can't recall for sure but I probably checked it again when I changed the pumps. I'm going to check the fuel pressure and fuel shut off valve. Will take a look at that screen too, but I'm betting it's okay because I cleaned out the fuel tank very well around 2014.

                              Don't know if the 2015 and 2018 temps differ.

                              I have never altered the timing from the 12 degrees I found when I first checked it.

                              I have not used any fuel additive but thought recently about giving one a try and investigated SeaFoam.

                              EDIT: First thought you were asking about engine temp, but if you are asking about ambient temp, I didn't record it, but the measurements were in Sept 2015 and August 2018. Chances are here in North Central Florida the 2015 and 2018 ambient temps were close.
                              Last edited by lake weir skier; 08-28-2018, 11:56 AM. Reason: Clarification
                              1994 ProStar 190, 350 TBI, 1:1, ACME 541, PTM Edge VR-140

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