Winterization of an LT1 - Checklist

[pram]

that was the part that concerned me was that I didn't see the smoke that I was accustomed to seeing when fogging

I think that I am going to put it back together take it back to the lake and run it all out then pull the plugs and fog each cylinder

[GT500 MC]

Get a run in while you're at it. Now that would be a definition of a ski-a-holic. "Winterization didn't go just right, I have to get it out again and then re-winterize. Just to be sure."

[JimN]

[QUOTE=pram;882325]that was the part that concerned me was that I didn't see the smoke that I was accustomed to seeing when fogging

I think that I am going to put it back together take it back to the lake and run it all out then pull the plugs and fog each cylinder[/QUOTE

The fogging oil may not be the type that smokes- the one in a red/white/blue can that has a ship's steering wheel doesn't but it still gets in there. If you used a lot of the oil, it probably went where it needs to.

[jakethebt]

Pram, I assume that since you are concerned you have an LT1. Just about anything else is TBI and you would be following Indmar advice. If you do have an LT1, don't know that you hurt anything by spraying down the intake. According to Vince at SkiDIM, that is the way Indmar use to tell everyone to do it. Recently they changed and now recomend pulling the plugs and spraying. In your case, I think that I would just pull the plugs and fog each cylinder.

[Legolamb]

Walmart has Mobil 1 15W-50 5 quart oil for $24.97, which is what I used in my LT1. I also purchased a high capacity DampRid moisture absorber which states is good for upto 6 months, available at Home Depot.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100391308/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=damp+rid&storeId=10051

[jakethebt]

Clarification from my last post… There are NOT two types of RV anti-freeze. There are two type of anti-freeze. Automotive is ethylene glycol (EG). RV/marine is propylene glycol (PG). PG is the safer stuff. Often times you will see a third letter used with these that is a further refinement or classification (PGI for industrial grade). From what I can find, most RV/marine is PG. There are different colors (dyes) to indicate strength, temperature and for visual confirmation that it is present (so you can see it coming out of the exhaust).

[jakethebt]

I talked to Indmar about what type of coolant to use on an LT1 and the bottom line is the glycol vs dry block debate will continue…

I talked to Sam in customer support at Indmar. They recommend dry blocking the engines. My opinion is that this is Indmar’s least risky stand. If done right, it is fool proof. The problem is that the consumers (we) can never be quite certain if our block is indeed dry. It also requires us to remove rusty thread plugs and knock sensors.

The first reason that was given is that Indmar does not want all that anti-freeze put in the water. RV safe or not, it seems they just don’t feel like it is a good idea to put it in the water or they don’t want to recommend it. Once again, I think this is their least risky stance.

The second reason that was given is that Indmar has seen issues with electrolysis in Al heads and more recently in Al exhaust manifolds. Sam stated that some engines had so much electrolysis that the engines could not cool properly. He also stated that in some of their newer engines that have Al exhaust manifolds, they had issues with the weld on the plugs corroding off. I don’t think electrolysis is the correct term, but that is what he used. At this point the discussion got a bit more interesting. I pointed out that on page 41 (6-9) Indmar owner’s manual states that for closed loop systems you should always use propylene glycol. The closed loop systems have it in there all the time, but the open loop systems can’t have it in there for 6 months? Sam re-iterated that they only see the corrosion in the open loop systems. I then pointed out that raw water is more corrosive to AL than propylene glycol. Most places state that propylene glycol, especially with corrosion inhibitors is improved protection for AL. I asked are you sure that it is the winterization propylene glycol that is causing the corrosion and proposed that perhaps it was the lake water itself causing the corrosion……. Crickets………. So I restated my question more simply… Why is it ok to run propylene glycol in the closed loop engine all the time and not the open loop half the time?

I felt a little bad putting Sam on the spot. I had some in depth questions and he had limited time to prepare a response. Perhaps he has thought of better answers now that the phone call is over, we all know that happens to everyone. The bottom line is that I don’t believe we will ever have official OEM approval to use RV antifreeze in our LT1. The easiest, lowest risk answer for Indmar and MC is to stick with dry blocking as their recommendation. Since that may not be the easiest answer for the consumer, we will continue to debate, wonder and maybe worry.

After taking in all the info and talking to Cincy MC about their LT1 winterization process, I have decided the best approach to publish may be the most amount of work. Cincy MC drains lake water, flush with PG RV anti-freeze and then drains the PG RV anti-freeze. This seems to mitigate the risk to the lowest level. I have updated the sheet on the first page to reflect this method. This ensures that no water is left anywhere it can do harm and replaced with PG RV anti-freeze and that the PG RV antifreeze is not sitting in the AL heads all winter. Please take a look at the updated list.

That being said… I hope that I have helped shed some light on this subject and maybe spark some new info/debate. The bottom line is that from my research I don’t see how either dry block or PG anti-freeze make any long term negative effects. I think either method will work fine. While I am not privy to all of Indmar’s knowledge, I just don’t understand how PG RV anti-freeze with corrosion inhibitors added (most RV anti-freezes do) causes AL to corrode. I think if anything, the raw lake water moving through and over them constantly is worse. I think that different lakes with more acidic or basic water would be a huge source of variation and corrosion. I would not be surprised, if a study was performed, that you could prove that the corrosion inhibitors in RV anti-freeze may actually improve the internal corrosion protection of the engine. Until then we will each have to make our own choice and compare notes in 20 more years…

[jakethebt]

A few discussion points and facts about Propylene Glycol (PG) anti-freeze:

• Propylene glycol (PG) antifreeze comes in two types, motor vehicle and RV. These antifreezes are intended for completely different end uses. This paper will discuss the applications and differences between these antifreezes.

RV antifreeze also known as RV/Marine antifreeze is intended to protect both drinking and waste water systems in recreational vehicles and seasonal homes. It is also used to winterize marine engines which prevents them from bursting while in storage for the winter. Although While -50°F RV/Marine antifreeze will start to freeze at about 10°F it will not burst until -50°F. This is known as burst protection. Burst protection to -50°F is achieved with less than a 35% PG solution. For this reason most RV antifreezes come pre-diluted with as much as 65% water.

RV/Marine antifreeze is also intended to protect drinking water systems from rusting. Drinking water systems are composed mainly of steel piping. Because of the contact with drinking water pipes, a non toxic corrosion inhibitor such as Di-Potassium Phosphate is used in fact it is the only corrosion inhibitor found in most RV/Marine antifreeze. Also, since RV/Marine antifreeze is intended to be flushed out seasonally, the corrosion inhibitors are not designed for long-term protection.

http://www.peakauto.com/resources-technically_speaking.shtml

• Propylene glycol has a very low toxicity level, so low that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has classified it as an additive "generally recognized as safe" for use in food. http://www.ehow.com/about_6726306_et...ne-glycol.html

• Safeguarding Aluminum From Water Corrosion
Many Lytron customers, who use aluminum cold plates and heat exchangers, question why we discourage using untreated water in their cooling loop. The following discussion addresses a major concern: aluminum corrosion and how to prevent it.

Understanding Corrosion

Over time, most metals tend to deteriorate due to corrosion, which manifests itself as pits, cracks or more widespread surface degradation. Corrosion usually results from chemical or electrochemical actions that break down the protective oxides, characteristic of most metallic surfaces. Exposure to certain liquid, gaseous or solid agents - for example, water, water vapor, acids, bases, ammonia, salts, and heavy metal ions - can induce corrosion.
Depending on their relative position on the periodic chart of chemical elements and their electromotive properties (ability to produce an electric current and thereby enter into destructive cathodic reactions), some metals (such as iron) are more prone to corrode than others (such as aluminum).

An Effective Approach to Minimize Aluminum Corrosion
We strongly recommend adding a prescribed amount of ethylene glycol (antifreeze) to the water used in cold plates to help alleviate aluminum corrosion. Usually a solution of 25% ethylene glycol to 75% water is sufficient to prevent aluminum corrosion.Commonly employed commercial antifreezes include ethylene glycol (an environmentally hazardous substance) and propylene glycol (less toxic and more environmentally acceptable than ethylene glycol).
To protect against corrosion, most commercial grade ethylene and propylene glycols contain a blend of corrosion inhibitors (typically six to twelve depending on the supplier). These additives protect metal surfaces by applying a combination of physical and electrochemical barriers that reduce the effects of corrosion.
You want your cooling loop to provide years of leak free cooling. Using ethylene glycol or propylene glycol to reduce aluminum corrosion ensures this.http://www.lytron.com/Tools-and-Tech...ater-Corrosion

• Propylene Glycol Industrial Grade (PGI) is an excellent choice as the base fluid for aircraft deicing formulations due to its:
Low freezing point
Low toxicity
Biodegradability
Ease of handling
Low corrosive nature to metals
Low flammability

http://www.dow.com/propyleneglycol/applications/aircraft_deicing_fluid.htm

• Propylene Glycol Industrial Grade (PGI) is often used as an active ingredient in engine coolants and antifreeze, offering benefits including:
Low freezing point
The ability to decrease the freezing point of water
Burst protection
Low mammalian toxicity
Low flammability
Excellent heat transfer properties
A high boiling point, low vapor pressure

Some types of propylene glycol-based coolants or antifreeze can provide engine protection comparable to ethylene glycol-based systems, most notably in aluminum engines.
When most fluids freeze they expand in volume, which can cause pipes or other containment vessels to rupture. When a water-glycol mixture freezes, it retains its flow-ability and does not create added pressure in pipes or vessels. This makes it an ideal solution for burst protection in pipe and containment systems.
http://www.dow.com/propyleneglycol/applications/coolants_and_antifreeze.htm

It should also be noted that PG is used as aircraft de-icing. So what are airplanes made of? AL!!!

[JimN]

Clarification from my last post… There are NOT two types of RV anti-freeze. There are two type of anti-freeze. Automotive is ethylene glycol (EG). RV/marine is propylene glycol (PG). PG is the safer stuff. Often times you will see a third letter used with these that is a further refinement or classification (PGI for industrial grade). From what I can find, most RV/marine is PG. There are different colors (dyes) to indicate strength, temperature and for visual confirmation that it is present (so you can see it coming out of the exhaust).

You seem to ba assuming the anti-freeze being used is made for engines and many people don't use that- they're using the stuff for holding tanks for fresh water systems, which does have alcohol. The bright green stuff is used by some, along with the environmental damage, although some collect it before they hit the water.

[jakethebt]

Yes, some or most of the PG seems to have some form or amount of alcohol in it. That IS the stuff used in holding tanks and is commonly referred to as RV anti-freeze. The fact that it has alcohol in it seems to be irrelevant as the reason for not recommending it seems to be with the PG itself, according to Sam at Indmar.

The auto stuff, or EG, is mainly green or sometimes red. It appears that there are no known corrosion issues with it, but as you stated JimN, it should be collected and recycled. I have heard that 5 gallons in equals about 15 out. That is a lot to figure out what to do with. Also there is concern that it will not be very easy to ensure that it is all out of the engine in the spring and you may end up with a few green streaks behind your boat. It is not only bad for the fish, it is bad to swim in and you could end up with a ticket.

One thing is for sure, there are a few choices out there. Just a matter of what you want to deal with...

[JimN]

Yes, some or most of the PG seems to have some form or amount of alcohol in it. That IS the stuff used in holding tanks and is commonly referred to as RV anti-freeze. The fact that it has alcohol in it seems to be irrelevant as the reason for not recommending it seems to be with the PG itself, according to Sam at Indmar.

The auto stuff, or EG, is mainly green or sometimes red. It appears that there are no known corrosion issues with it, but as you stated JimN, it should be collected and recycled. I have heard that 5 gallons in equals about 15 out. That is a lot to figure out what to do with. Also there is concern that it will not be very easy to ensure that it is all out of the engine in the spring and you may end up with a few green streaks behind your boat. It is not only bad for the fish, it is bad to swim in and you could end up with a ticket.

One thing is for sure, there are a few choices out there. Just a matter of what you want to deal with...

WRT choices, there are only a few- using auto anti-freeze isn't one of them and if the Coast Guard/DNR sees someone with a big green or red plume behind the boat, it gets ugly, fast. The fines and other penalties makes using it a very stupid decision. It's not just fish- it's every animal that ingests it- organ failure starts soon after, usually followed by death if the concentration is sufficient.

As far as 3 in/15 out, why? If the antifreeze i s drained into the bilge and collected, it comes out to 3 in/3 out with wiping up the excess before running it on water.

[jakethebt]

I suppose you could do it that way. I have heard that some attempt to collect it via buckets under the exhaust to rinse it out of the block with water. I agree, it does not seem easy, or green. Also, there is no where near where I live that will recycle it. I think I will stick with the check list method.

[JimN]

I suppose you could do it that way. I have heard that some attempt to collect it via buckets under the exhaust to rinse it out of the block with water. I agree, it does not see easy, or green. Also, there is no where near where I live that will recycle it. I think I will stick with the check list method.

I would try draining the engine into the bilge and let it drain out through the hull. Kind of a balancing act WRT the location and slope, but it can be done. As far as where to take it, I would call some of the fast-lube places that do cooling system flushes. I usually take old oil to the closest Valvoline place and they're fine with that. If I have to, I can go to the MKE county dump. They take old oil, brake fluid and coolant.

Where are you?

[Ski-me]

What is the benefit, if any, to switch to a synthetic motor oil or transmission oil?

I've seen Royal Purple but most of it is all synthetic.

I'm concerned about putting this "premium" stuff in such an old boat motor (1994 LT1). Is it really worth it or just a waste of money?

Also, if I don't get all the tranny fluid out....is it OK to "mix" traditional with the synthetic?

[Thrall]

What is the benefit, if any, to switch to a synthetic motor oil or transmission oil?

I've seen Royal Purple but most of it is all synthetic.

I'm concerned about putting this "premium" stuff in such an old boat motor (1994 LT1). Is it really worth it or just a waste of money?

Also, if I don't get all the tranny fluid out....is it OK to "mix" traditional with the synthetic?

IMO, synthetic is good if you're after longer drain intervals, lasts longer, doesn't break down as quickly.
I don't think, there are any other advantages.
Case in point, I ran my 1990GMC, 350 engine up to about 160k mi before I sold it. Changed the oil every 3k mi +/- with whatever the cheapest stuff on sale was. (I was in college, no extra money in the beer fund for syn oil.) Saw the truck a couple years later towing a big ole horse trailer. Guy I sold it to put a GN hitch in the bed and worked the 1/2 ton like a 1 ton. At that point it had about 230k mi, orig engine....and trans.
My new F150 work truck and the last one, both "require" 5W20 synthetic. Also have about a 10k mile reccomended oil change interval. My company still requires 3k mi oil changes and no syn oil. Turned in the last one at 90k mi and the engine was still fine, many of them running around close to 150k mi before getting sent to auction.
Again, I think routine maint is the key, not what you use to maintain it as long as it's of sufficient quality.
I use synthetic oils in my vehicles trans, t case, axles, but only because I don't want to crawl under them as often to change the oil. I use syn 2 stroke, top quality oil in my sleds but only because I have the oil injection tuned down to the minimum required to keep them running right. If I let them run fat on oil, I'd use cheaper stuff. Everything else including the boat (which gets short service intervals due to the amount of hrs a year I use it) gets dino oils.
Note this is only my opinion, but I was responsible for maintianing a fleet of vehicles/equipment for about 5 years. Landscaping business, mom and pop place, never saw things with engines get abused as bad as there and with regular cheap dino oil changes, I never saw an oil related failure, nor any premature failures. Plenty of wear and tear failures, things used well beyond their intended purpose or loading, swapped out a couple OLD engines, but reasonably priced oil works fine.