Selling a house FHA, electrical question.

[1redTA]

You must have gotten a VA appraiser who like is job. most are blind, deaf and can't read

[Thrall]

It's bullchit but I've had to do some pretty hinky things to sell a house before and no matter how well you justify your position, it comes down to what the seller wants (typically the home inspector who doesn't know his @ss from a hole in the ground.
Had to caulk all the valley seams on a ProPanel roof once. Had to replace a good moen faucet with a $40 throw away because it dripped. Used that faucet in my next home. Even showed the new owners how to pull the cartridge and gave them the # of the moen store in town.
Had to fix a swamp cooler that wasn't broken. They tested it on the only humid day that summer.
On the flip side I did buy a house out from under someone because they wanted a bunch of stuff fixed that wasn't broke and I bought it no inspection required.

Sucks but get the house gone and be happy in your awesome new place!

[coz]

^^ This. Not worth the time effort or headache to fight it. Unfortunately FHA appraisers and loan underwriters are GOD in real estate. Is it right? Who knows but in the grand scheme of a real estate deal $200 isn't worth worrying about.

That's right, you'll have to do what the FHA guy wants if you want that guy to buy the house. I deal with FHA inspections and repairs on a daily basis and you can't get around what they want done if they're going to loan money on that house. On a conventional loan it's a lot different, you can tell them to take a hike, it's good to go.

[JohnE]

The appraiser that is requiring this is a solo practice and from my conversation with him, they are certified FHA appraisers/inspectors (not really sure what that means/amounts to though). I asked if there was any higher power that I could appeal this to and was told no. Based on my conversation with him, I could see I was going to get nowhere and the $200 it is going to cost me to have a certified electrician put "C" shaped conduit over the wiring is likely less that some other thing he will come up with if I complain. In the end I just like to be educated.

For $200 it is an absolute no brainer. Just get it done. The guy has to be way off base though.

[JimN]

Wires stapled along the sill plate and along the side of the joist are completely legal and in compliance with National Electrical Code (NEC). I do know that FHA loans are subject to their own independent standards, but I have to believe that this FHA inspector is off base. Otherwise every house in my town would fail. I've never seen a house that didn't have romex stapled to the side of a joist. And I know of a lot of houses that sold recently with FHA loans. FWIW I am a Master Electrician, certified IAEI Electrical Inspector and Plan Reviewer. You or your buyer needs to speak to the inspector again and somehow ask him if there is any chance he misread or misapplied the regulation. And ask to see it.

I would just ask to see the regs- saying that he mis-read it is likely to make him mad. I would also ask why his requirements diverge from NEC and what he's using as his reference. Is he privy to what's coming with the April 2014 NEC changes? How, exactly?

[h2oskifreak]

If an Appraiser get totally out of control, they can be reported to VA/FHA and if enough complaints come in, the Regulatory agency can yank their approval. Also, if one lender has regular trouble with an Appraiser, they can be removed from the list of approved appraisers and simply not used any longer. I have seen this work.

[kkkeating]

Depending on the placement of the sill plate and the construction of the basement, the FHA inspector most likely is correct in his statement, assuming the type of cable you’re using is nometallic-sheath cable(romex). The odd item is the inspector couldn’t point out in the code where this is required. This is covered in the 2011 National Electrical Code, Article 334.15(C)(Exposed work, In Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces). The NEC makes it clear that physical protection is always to be provided where the cable is subject to physical damage, which is a possibility in an unfinished basement. The article is used to define how the cable can be used in exposed work. The important sentence in this article states “Nonmetallic-shealth cable installed on the wall of an unfinished basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed conduit tubing or shall be protected in accordance with 300.4.

A photo of the installation would help out in making a final evaluation.

[homer12]

I wonder if he even knows what NEC stands for? lol...

[JohnE]

Depending on the placement of the sill plate and the construction of the basement, the FHA inspector most likely is correct in his statement, assuming the type of cable you’re using is nometallic-sheath cable(romex). The odd item is the inspector couldn’t point out in the code where this is required. This is covered in the 2011 National Electrical Code, Article 334.15(C)(Exposed work, In Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces). The NEC makes it clear that physical protection is always to be provided where the cable is subject to physical damage, which is a possibility in an unfinished basement. The article is used to define how the cable can be used in exposed work. The important sentence in this article states “Nonmetallic-shealth cable installed on the wall of an unfinished basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed conduit tubing or shall be protected in accordance with 300.4.

A photo of the installation would help out in making a final evaluation.

In over 30 years wiring houses and almost 10 years reading opinions on Mike Holt's forum I have never heard of anyone interpreting that a cable stapled to a sill plate is subject to physical damage. And if he allows cables run perpendicular to joists through bored holes than how he could possible say one is subject to damage and one is not? It is pretty much impossible to substantiate. Lets face it his has OP by the ***** so cables will get covered. But if he is saying they are subject to physical damage that is BS. Plus a half round conduit will not be an approved method of protecting a cable from physical damage.

334.15(C) makes it clear that the cables can be stapled to a running board underneath a joist. Along the sill is almost identical. (Actually a bit more protected when sill is set back from foundation edge which is almost always.

[Traxx822]

So, I finally have a buyer lined up for my old house and while I knew I would have to do some items, like a new electrical panel (mine was a Federal Pacific which they frown upon), I was surprised by what the FHA appraiser wants done.
For starters, I should mention that the buyer had a home inspection done and the electrical items the guy pointed out were the box and that a couple of GFI outlets needed to be added, otherwise all good. So, the FHA appraiser comes in and he says that all wiring in the basement must be run thru the floor joists or in conduit and it can not be stapled to the sill plate or the side of any floor joist. Now, I understand not having a wire tacked to the underside of a joist, but to run alongside a joist and tacked up 5 inches or so from the bottom, I thought that was fine. So, I had 2 different licensed electricians come thru and they took a look at my wiring and said it was code however the FHA appraiser informs me that while it may be fine for conventional it is not OK for FHA. So, everything is going into conduit but I wanted to see if any of you guys have ever run into this or if this appraiser has some bad info.
Thanks in advance.

I work in Mortgage field services as a contractor for banks directly so I am pretty accustomed to having this issue. FHA loans are completely different from Conventional loans. And they come with a different set of rules. Its kind of what you get for allowing the government to assist on first time home buyer credit and other things. But your loan ... albeit may be deep entrenched and in fine print, will clearly state that your home must pass all current regulations for safety. They consider electrical to be a safety issue. So if you are going to sell your home it has to comply with current codes. Even if what was performed was done correct at the time.

I can also tell you that it is better fire protection to run your wires in pipe, through the floor joists. Not stapled or romex wire run like extension cords all over the place. Yes I know not all states require conduit, but FHA requires you comply with all new regs.

My advice is no never accept any government assisted loan. Even for first time home buyer credit of $8k. Because they will make you spend that savings later ... EVERY SINGLE TIME. Its their job to make sure that the home they finance is of the highest quality and most current standards so if you default then they have a more valuable and safe home to resell.

It sucks, FHA sucks. Even though I make my living off of doing these repairs to FHA homes in default.

As a note: Romex is not allowed in any homes in my area. Exposed or not. It is a violation is any manner.

[JohnE]

I work in Mortgage field services as a contractor for banks directly so I am pretty accustomed to having this issue. FHA loans are completely different from Conventional loans. And they come with a different set of rules. Its kind of what you get for allowing the government to assist on first time home buyer credit and other things. But your loan ... albeit may be deep entrenched and in fine print, will clearly state that your home must pass all current regulations for safety. They consider electrical to be a safety issue. So if you are going to sell your home it has to comply with current codes. Even if what was performed was done correct at the time.

I can also tell you that it is better fire protection to run your wires in pipe, through the floor joists. Not stapled or romex wire run like extension cords all over the place. Yes I know not all states require conduit, but FHA requires you comply with all new regs.

My advice is no never accept any government assisted loan. Even for first time home buyer credit of $8k. Because they will make you spend that savings later ... EVERY SINGLE TIME. Its their job to make sure that the home they finance is of the highest quality and most current standards so if you default then they have a more valuable and safe home to resell.

It sucks, FHA sucks. Even though I make my living off of doing these repairs to FHA homes in default.

As a note: Romex is not allowed in any homes in my area. Exposed or not. It is a violation is any manner.

Certainly a steel conduit offers better protection than romex. Chicago is somewhat famous for requiring conduit in residential. I wouldn't wire my house that way if you paid me. Completely overkill and unnecessary IMO. Interesting fine print.

Interesting advice on the gov. loan too.

[kkkeating]

In over 30 years wiring houses and almost 10 years reading opinions on Mike Holt's forum I have never heard of anyone interpreting that a cable stapled to a sill plate is subject to physical damage.

Response: This has come up before, and the code is not as clear as it should be. Depending on where the sill plate is in relation to the wall is really the question. If it’s somewhat recessed and up high then that’s open to interpretation, however the inspector of the AHJ has the final say regarding the interpretation. If it’s low, not recessed, and accessible then it can easily be claimed that it needs protection. NEC 334.12(B) clearly states that for exposed work for this type of cable, “The cable shall be protected for physical damage where necessary” That’s why I asked for photos.

And if he allows cables run perpendicular to joists through bored holes than how he could possible say one is subject to damage and one is not? It is pretty much impossible to substantiate.

Response: Because the code clearly states that cables can be run perpendicular to the joists in bored holes. See NEC NEC 334.12(C) which states “Smaller cables shall be run either through bored holes in joists on running boards” The reason for running boards is to prevent people from “clothes hanging”, or in other words preventing people from hanging items from the cable. Granted, people can still hang items from the cable through the bored holes, but for some reason the code felt this wouldn’t be as much of an issue as when the cable is directly on the bottom of the joists.

The point being with my post is the inspector is not necessary out of bounds with his request. The code is not as clear as it should be for this type of installation. I’m a professional electrical engineer who works in the industry and you’d be surprised what can come up in a lawsuit. And it doesn’t matter what’s in the code. If I was to design this installation, and if someone damaged the cable and got electrocuted, the first item the attorneys’ would bring up would be “The code requires physical protection of the cable, and obviously you didn’t provide it as someone got electrocuted”. At that point in time my Errors and Omission’s insurance kicks in $50K as opposed to trying to fight it and paying substantially more after a trail. This could be the inspector’s company policy for this type of installation. It cost no money to them to implement, and can save a potential lawsuit from occurring in the future against them.

[cbryan70]

I bought my home FHA and somehow no repairs were needed. I dont even think they sent an home inspector out besides the one I paid.

[JohnE]

The point being with my post is the inspector is not necessary out of bounds with his request. The code is not as clear as it should be for this type of installation. I’m a professional electrical engineer who works in the industry and you’d be surprised what can come up in a lawsuit. And it doesn’t matter what’s in the code. If I was to design this installation, and if someone damaged the cable and got electrocuted, the first item the attorneys’ would bring up would be “The code requires physical protection of the cable, and obviously you didn’t provide it as someone got electrocuted”. At that point in time my Errors and Omission’s insurance kicks in $50K as opposed to trying to fight it and paying substantially more after a trail. This could be the inspector’s company policy for this type of installation. It cost no money to them to implement, and can save a potential lawsuit from occurring in the future against them.

This is the only part of your response that I agree with. But lets agree to take the rest over to Mike Holt's site. We won't bore anyone here with it. We'd have ten pages of responses over there.

[jkski]

To help close this out, I met the appraiser at the house over the weekend when he went to do his re-inspection. He still did not provide any documentation but did pass it so we are now in the home stretch.....I think.
The appraiser kept talking about wires not in conduit or running thru joists as a safety hazzard stating that a wire that is up against something hard, like being stapled to the side of a joist, poses a potential hazzard in that the wire could easily be stabbed, whereas one running thru a joist can not as it will move or give.
Still not happy about it but it's $200 closer to a closing date!