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  • #31
    Originally posted by MC25 View Post
    Why do people think regulation is going to stop these attacks? Criminals don’t follow the laws?!!!!!

    Lol @ Europeans asking why we can get guns. Well, because it’s working out so well for you guys... (ex. See people getting stabbed in the streets while the police watch)
    At what point were the police merrily watching whilst people were being stabbed? Very interested to see the facts behind that (and not FOX news as that doesn't count).

    Other than being a member of your countries armed forces and being on a front line, I can't think of a single legitimate reason why you should be in possession of an automatic or semi automatic assault rifle

    The fact that you can walk in off the street and buy one (or lots) with as much ammo as you can carry is absolutely insane. You can quote the constitution all you like, it doesn't make it any less bonkers. Thats the European view
    Last edited by ac505; 10-03-2017, 03:39 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by TyTanium View Post
      AC505, I'll give a sincere answer to your question.

      First and foremost, our right to bear arms has nothing to do with hunting. It's a right we have in case we need to form a militia to defend ourselves AGAINST A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT. The reason I said that is to get you to throw out the hunting logic and use a war type logic. Our forefathers wrote in the Second Amendment to the Constitution that our right to bear arms "shall not be infringed." This is to prevent the government from saying something like.....ok, you can bear arms but only a single shot .22 (which would basically disarm the people). Our forefathers gave us the right to bear whatever arms we need to defend ourselves.

      Ok, with that said, we realize there is some difficulty that comes with the right to bear arms....how do we ensure the people can arm themselves effectively against tyranny but at the same time ensure bad people don't use the arms to commit crimes? We try to prevent would be criminals from acquiring guns by using a background check and in the case of a fully automatic weapon, it's a MUCH more involved process. It's not perfect, but it's helped.




      Now that's the legal side...the logic side says a criminal won't obey the laws anyway so why make more laws? I don't think that's the answer. The bottom line is if a person wants to do harm, we cannot possibly keep them from gaining custody of everything dangerous. Acid, fertilizer, gasoline, etc. etc. etc.

      Thanks for the view, good to have a sensible debate and not petty point scoring. I struggle to follow the logic here however. The following isn't politically driven, its my personal view. So the justification of owning such a weapon isn't for hunting, its for protection against a government. But the government have much bigger guns and a well trained army who know how to use them so unless you can legitimately get a bigger gun, then the gun you have offers little to no protection in such a situation as you describe? What happens next?

      I have no problem with gun ownership for hunting, I am fortunate to live in a place where there is no need (or way) to own a gun for self protection, and yes, whilst there is a worrying rise in crime using the likes of acid, arming yourself for the 1:1,000,000 chance that it will happen is not the answer. I think the UK generally is more violent at a lower level than the USA. I would hazard a guess that most Americans would rather avoid a bit of fisticuffs on the off chance that it escalates into somebody unloading a magazine into the other person, Brits on the other hand have a relatively consequence free attitude towards beating each other senseless after closing time on a Friday night, we lead the world in piss-head pugilism.

      In some ways the 2nd amendment is like an experiment gone wrong, it's the whole intent:effect thing, and the situation now cannot be reversed as too many believe ownership of such weapons designed for warfare is a right, and there are too many guns out there that were legitimately purchased but fall into the wrong hands. Does this relatively lax gun ownership simply feeds fuel to the fire? I think yes. As such and regrettably this kind of attach will happen again and again, some may feel it is acceptable collateral damage outweighed by the right to maintain the second amendment.

      I feel so sad for those affected and going back to my earlier statement, I felt a chill down my spine hearing the audio of those gunshots.

      On a slightly lighter note, watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0
      Last edited by ac505; 10-03-2017, 04:30 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by mzimme View Post
        Automatic weapons are not sold. Generally semi-auto rifles are modified to be fully automatic. They don't come from the store that way. I can't even fathom what has to be going on in your head to start firing into a crowd of 30k people. Just incomprehensible.
        News has reported that automatic weapons are legal in the State of Nevada.
        sigpic

        The Only Thing That You Can Give and Still Keep Is Your Word

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        • #34
          Originally posted by trickskier View Post
          News has reported that automatic weapons are legal in the State of Nevada.
          They always have been. For the past few years the wait time to get approval for purchase is around 12 months or more. That’s if you can find one in the state. Otherwise it has to be transferred between gun dealers into your state. For an AR-15 full auto rifle you are looking at $18,000 minimum for the gun. People who buy these NFA weapons are not doing crime with them. Usually if you are mad the 12 month wait chills you out.


          http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...kly+Newsletter

          This happened is Canada recently. They are illegal there. I also know in Detroit I could go buy a fully automatic AR-15 out of a trunk for around $5,000. Hell, I could take a piece of 2” long steel banding and make any of my AR-15 rifles fully automatic in about 1/2 hr with just a file.

          I don’t do these things because they are illegal, the same reason I do not kill people. The problem is people who don’t follow laws, not the law abiding gun owner.

          I’m going to go down and kiss my full auto guns and also my semi auto guns goodbye before I leave for work.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ac505 View Post
            At what point were the police merrily watching whilst people were being stabbed? Very interested to see the facts behind that (and not FOX news as that doesn't count).

            Other than being a member of your countries armed forces and being on a front line, I can't think of a single legitimate reason why you should be in possession of an automatic or semi automatic assault rifle

            The fact that you can walk in off the street and buy one (or lots) with as much ammo as you can carry is absolutely insane. You can quote the constitution all you like, it doesn't make it any less bonkers. Thats the European view
            Right and that is the same reason why Europe is dealing terrorist which seems like on a weekly basis.

            At the end of the day, criminals and terrorist will find a way to get a gun. Europe bans guns, yet people are still killed by them. Heck, bombs are illegal, but that doesn't stop a criminal or terrorist from making them. Your country clearly proves that taking guns away doesn't stop any of this. Chicago has a ban on hand guns and they are the murder capital of the US.

            Why should we disarm law abiding citizens and make them vulnerable to criminals?

            Its safe to say that Canadians and Europeans should stay out of the gun control fight due to lack of knowledge and rationale.

            At what point do we blame the person that is pulling the trigger, the person stabbing with the knife, the bus driver that runs people over, or the bomb maker detonating the bomb? People need to take accountability for their actions. A weapon is only a means to an end, it does not have a mind of its own. We have a people problem in this world, not a gun problem......

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            • #36
              Originally posted by AlbertaSurfer View Post
              I didn't start the blame, but you're free to place it where you like, so I'll take it.

              I'm not saying I don't like America, I'm in Boston right now in fact, off to New York tomorrow too. I agree it's tragic, but I happen to see it as a tragedy because people, once again, were needlessly murdered, for no reason other than they attended a music festival some dirtbag with automatic weapons decided to light up. I'm not commenting on the politics of anything, I'm commenting on the attitudes of gun morons, and that's an opinion I'm free to hold sir.
              So because I own a lot of guns I'm considered a "Gun Moron"? At what point do you blame the person and not the gun? The last time that I checked, guns don't fire themselves....

              When a two people get in a car wreck and one of them passes away from injuries sustained from the crash, whose fault is it, the car or the driver???

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              • #37
                Timothy McVeigh- 76 people dead- 178 injured. Bomb made of vertilizer and diesel fuel. If you really want to kill people you can. See recent incedents of truck driving into crowds. This is not a gun issue- anyone that thinks it is I would respectfuly submit that their argument is emotional in nature and not pragmatic.

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                • #38
                  Yes, there are still gun deaths in places with gun controls, but the numbers are so much lower. You can't fix everything but you can slow it down

                  With all due respect when someone shoots over 500 people with a high powered automatic weapon, it is a gun issue. Watch comedian Jim Jeffries below

                  https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jorski View Post
                    Yes, there are still gun deaths in places with gun controls, but the numbers are so much lower. You can't fix everything but you can slow it down

                    With all due respect when someone shoots over 500 people with a high powered automatic weapon, it is a gun issue. Watch comedian Jim Jeffries below

                    https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0
                    You are making my point for me. You think that this guy would have cared about a gun ban? Drugs are illiegal and people get them all the time. I think ill stick with an econmist that looks at the data and the data alone on this one- John Lott's book- More Guns Less Crime. As an aside he came into the debate focussing on supporting gun bands but the numbers disproved that and being a pragmatist he had to stick with the numbers and i like numbers not opinions (respectfully). He address the Australia in this post. Make up your own mind but food for thought. A http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/0...ustralias.html

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Thrall View Post
                      My gosh, what a horrific event to start spewing inappropriate gun "nerd" comments.
                      Unimaginably terrible event played out by apparently a horrible weak human being.
                      Has nothing to do with gun control and please don't jynx your Canadian self thinking you're safe because you can't even own a hand gun unless it's carried around like a shiny fancy rock, locked in a case.
                      I'll reserve the rest of my comments in our Time of mourning.

                      Btw, every time something like this happens, I, and am sure many others get a little more ratcheted up the gun nerd ladder. At least those that would do anything to protect ourselves, our loved ones, or anyone in need for that fact.
                      Amen brother.

                      I honestly don't even like readin these threads or hearing about the situation.not that a heartless fool, just hate perception people have

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by trickskier View Post
                        News has reported that automatic weapons are legal in the State of Nevada.
                        Full auto is legal in EVERY State but IIRC CA and NY can't bring one in, previously owned were grandfathered OK.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Mastercraftdave View Post

                          Its safe to say that Canadians and Europeans should stay out of the gun control fight due to lack of knowledge and rationale.

                          ......
                          Actually, it gives us perspective as gun ownership is not indoctrinated into the culture. Check out the link I posted,

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jorski View Post
                            Yes, there are still gun deaths in places with gun controls, but the numbers are so much lower. You can't fix everything but you can slow it down



                            With all due respect when someone shoots over 500 people with a high powered automatic weapon, it is a gun issue. Watch comedian Jim Jeffries below



                            https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0


                            So Chicago has gun control and it's not working there. They have the highest murder rate in the US.

                            So do guns kill people or do people kill people?


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                            • #44
                              My prayers to those who were killed, shot, injured, witnessed, experienced, worked, rescued victims, assisted/treated victims or were impacted by the shootings in Las Vegas at the Harvest Festival in anyway. There is no sense in such a horrendous crime!!!!

                              I am not one who normally jumps on all the conspiracy bandwagons. But I have see a few videos and something seems odd to me about what is being reported on this. I have seem multiple videos where there are flashes of lights (rapid fire gun flashes) coming much lower than the 32nd floor. The shooter had zero social media presence, but a different person with the same name, same address and same age had a much larger social media foot print, but a looked very different. I have seen video where automatic fire can be heard very close and then a few seconds later on the same video there is automatic fire that is much further away (notably quieter). Some non-mainstream media is putting up some pretty convincing video that there were multiple shooters.

                              Anyone else think it is more than has been reported? Am I getting con'd?

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                              • #45
                                If you are against gun control. there is likely nothing that would change your mind.

                                Perhaps Chicago simply demonstrates that regional/local gun control doesn't work. It's too easy to go next door and get the guns. it may well work if it was a national program. It certainly worked in Australia.

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