Opions/Recommendations Arc Audio... Speaker Whine

[86Skier]

Short story... my 2014 X2 has a very annoying speaker whine from the tower, but none from the interior speakers. Previous owner had stereo work done, including two new ARC Audio KS 300.4 amps, 4 new tower speakers, sub, and a separate equalizer added under the dash.

Played around with grounds, etc. all summer with no fix found. Even tried some cheap filters just to get through the season, no improvement.

Finally after giving up on the season, I brought it to the dealer who just called and said they recommend removing the EQ, replacing both amps with JL ("like they're supposed to be"), and a full new wiring job. Seems excessive, as it otherwise sounds OK. They said the existing amps aren't meant for the boat and don't "have the filters that JL has to eliminate interference from the throttle body".... their cost was $5k+...

In the end, I'm taking it home while I go back to trying to sort it out on my own and research options. I was prepared to drop plenty of coin just be done with it, just not into replacing everything if I don't have to.. The dealers been great otherwise, so this is not a dealer bashing thread, I just think there has to be an easier solution.

Are Arc Audio amps really that bad? Can they really be the issue?

I can get models/part numbers on the other parts if it helps too.

Any input? Can't really buy into the whole burn it down, junk it all, and start over mantra if I don't have to. This isn't Homes On Homes.

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[bturner2]

Don't know anything about Arc Audio but I do know a bit about "custom" sound systems that never seem to work correctly as I've had to fix several over the years. Sounds like you have one of them and the dealer probably isn't the best place to take it to get it repaired. At best the dealer probably dabbles in audio and at least they're being truthful about it and sticking to what they know.

As you're finding out installing audio gear in a boat is not as easy as ordering a bunch of components and throwing it in. Grounding is critical and a whine in the newly added components would indicate that the issue with the installation of the new gear. If I were to guess this is most likely a grounding issue with the amps, head unit and EQ not tied together properly. Without being there to work through the system anyone making suggestions/recommendations is just guessing.

This really leaves you with two options.....

The first would be to rip out the old gear as recommended by the dealer then rebuild the system with marine grade components (btw, I have no idea if the arc gear is or not) paying painful attention to using properly sized marine grade cable and best cabling practices when rewiring the system. This is probably going to mean scrutinizing the cable runs, protection being used and how the bus bars are being used (if at all).

If you don't know what you're doing and are not interested in learning how to do this work properly yourself the second recommendation would be to take the boat to a high quality shop that specializes in marine installations and not the local car stereo shop. It would appear the boat was either there once already or installed by a less than knowledgeable PO hence your current situation. Try not to fall over when you see the cost to fix what you have as these shops are typically pricey.

I've focused on doing the first method myself with very good results but when I give this plan to friends I've done this work for they nearly flip out. You'd be surprised to see the absolute junk so called professional installations I've seen. I've seen 12/2 Romex used for power cable and lamp cord for speaker wire along with a mix wire nuts and black tape balls holding everything together. My point here is that you never know what you have until you strip everything back and start from scratch with some of these installations.

[moosehead]

How is the amp powering your tower speakers grounded?

[86Skier]

I will take a good inventory of what parts I'm currently working with, and will better examine the routing of the grounds, etc., as soon as I get the boat back. I'll also try to get a few photos that might help. I believe the grounds from both amps currently go to the house battery, and have confirmed that the power & ground wires coming out of the factory head unit have been cut and spliced to route direct to the amps/battery instead of the factory routing through the harness, but I'll try to confirm where exactly those connect now as well.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with the quality of the wiring I've seen so far while exploring this summer, but it is tagged with a install date and contact information from the shop that installed it out west (I believe Oregon), so I'll add that as well and may try to contact them to see if they have any records of exactly what they did at the time.

In the end, I'm not against pulling everything and attempting to correctly re-wire myself. I've done a lot of residential wiring before, and have a good basic understanding of electrical.... BUT, I have zero useful knowledge when it comes to audio equipment or proper wiring, shielding, routing, etc.

I was really hoping the dealer saw something easier to address, like an incorrectly routed ground, etc., but I don't want to go another summer with the whine, and have access to the boat all winter in my heated garage, so I have plenty of time to see what I can do. The problem will be recreating the issue, as it always worked fine in accessory position... just not while running.

[bturner2]

Multiple cable runs going to the battery are the first sign of a junk or amateur installation. You should only have the cables going to a power panel or your switches attached to the battery. Some will attach the bilge pumps directly but I prefer to do this at the battery switches as well. I'm more convinced now that the issue is the installation and if I were to pick my first component to go after it would be the EQ. Tons of people have problems getting these installed properly.

Here's a picture of my last boat and the "professional installation" that the car stereo shop did. What you can't see is in these pictures were the Pioneer car amp that was falling off the side panel or all 4 Wet Sounds tower speakers that were wire on a single channel using the wires in the tower that were supposed to be for lights.....

[86Skier]

^^^ Thanks! ^^^

Unfortunately, I suspect I have much the same, as there are definitely WAY too many connections directly at the battery terminals.

I'll get more specifics on exactly what I'm dealing with when I get the boat back, and post here to see if anyone's willing to help walk me through the process, offer advice, criticism, etc.... I take it all.

In the interim, if anybody with some marine audio know-how lives anywhere near West Michigan, shoot me a PM. I'd love for some onsite input, and am willing to offer plenty of beer... as well as monetary compensation to someone that's willing to help, whether it be getting your hands dirty, or just offering in-person advice after having a chance to see my mess with your own eyes.

[bturner2]

I may be out in the Allendale area later in the winter to work on a friends boat. I need to do a thermostat on a 5.7 Ilmore as well as a couple other maintenance items (and no I won't be greasing the starter..... ). Keep us updated so I remember this thread.

[CantRepeat]

It has be suggested in the past that if, you take them out to dinner at least once a week they whine a lot less.

[MLA]

Why do we always overlook the B+ and assume its always the ground? And dont overlook the power harness for the EQ either! Its just as big of a potential offender.

To the OP, Arc amps are some of the best designed amps on the market. Marine amps dont need special "filters" compared to a "car" amp. With the system off, unplug the RCA feeding the suspect amp. Power the system up. If the whine is now gone, then you dont need a marine amp with "specials" filters.

Your mastercraft is not designed and built for one brand of amp, so no, JL is not "supposed" to be in your boat.

Gut says its a wiring issue, not a component issue. This is the case 99/100 times.

[86Skier]

With the system off, unplug the RCA feeding the suspect amp. Power the system up. If the whine is now gone, then you dont need a marine amp with "specials" filters.

I will try this first when I get it back in my garage. My only concern is replicating the issue without running it.

Normally, when cleaning up after an outing, etc., if I turn to accessory and turn the stereo on, it would whine for 3-5 seconds (guesstimating), then dissappear... so after the short delay, it worked fine on land. When running at the lake, volume was the only answer to mask it. I was really starting to wonder if the auto-battery switch was the reason, since it would connect both batteries while running, but separate when off. Any validity to my theory?

Again, sorta guessing until I get it back, but I do appreciate all the info, so figured I'd ask.


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[MLA]

I will try this first when I get it back in my garage. My only concern is replicating the issue without running it.

Normally, when cleaning up after an outing, etc., if I turn to accessory and turn the stereo on, it would whine for 3-5 seconds (guesstimating), then dissappear... so after the short delay, it worked fine on land. When running at the lake, volume was the only answer to mask it. I was really starting to wonder if the auto-battery switch was the reason, since it would connect both batteries while running, but separate when off. Any validity to my theory?

Again, sorta guessing until I get it back, but I do appreciate all the info, so figured I'd ask.


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Since the noise is present with engine running, but not there when engine off, this proves with 99% certainty, that you do not need amps with special "filters" and to remove the EQ. If a failed component was the cause, the whine would be present with both engine off and on.

Sounds like not all of the audio components are sharing the same voltage source. Only takes a small voltage differential, to create ground-loop.

Now, could your system benefit from new amps? Sure, could be some room to increase the wattage. To 4 tower pods, the KS300.4 is only like 90W rms IIR. Thats not much for even a 6.5 coaxial. Is there a benefit to going with marine amps? Sure, especially compared to an amp like the Arc KS series. As good as they are, they are open chassis fan cooled amps. Eventually, the humid marine environment will take its toll on the internals. Oh, and dont forget those filters

[86Skier]

Picked up the rig and put her back in my own garage this weekend. Meant to snap pictures, but was pretty disgruntled when I hooked the batteries back up and went to play a tune while I started digging.

But... Nothing... notta. Dealer left things disconnected everywhere. Grounds disconnected from the amps, connections unplugged, etc. Finally found what they undid in order to get interior boat speakers back, but am still on the hunt for why the tower is now completely dead. Just trying to get it back to where it was so I can start trouble shooting, but pretty upset I brought it in operational, asked them to diagnose, and it comes back non-functioning. Sure, I turned down their option to fully rebuild it, and yes there were issues, but I sure as heck figured I'd at least get it back like I sent it.

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[86Skier]

Well... had a couple hours to really start digging, and am at least getting further in understanding what I have and how its routed.

Also found all the wires and connections the dealer disconnected to get everything operating as it was again now.

What I'm working with:

1x Arc Audio KS300.4 Amp - Cabin Speakers (JL 7.7's)

1x Arc Audio KS300.4 Amp - Sub (2x JL 10")

2x Arc Audio XDi 600.4 Amps - Tower Speakers
(I haven't opened it yet to see what speakers are in the cans, but there are 4x 8"(?) speakers)

Wet Sounds WS-420BT 4 Band Equalizer w/ Blue Tooth & Mic

Head Unit (Glove Box) - Fusion MS-RA205

Remote on Dash - Fusion MS-NRX200i

As for routing, I can confirm that all four amps go to the house battery. The 2x tower amps route through 2x separate "Stinger Power Cables" and 2x separate ground cables.

The sub and cabin amps have a single power cable connection that splits at a twin 100 watt fuse, and then continued to each with independent power cables. Each also has its own ground cable to the battery.

I still have to figure out the routing of cables between the head unit, remote, and equalizer..... a lot more digging, but seeing lots of need for clean-up at a minimum.

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[86Skier]

Should keep me busy this winter if nothing else.

Just wish I knew what I was doing... really good at alot of things, but audio ain't one of them.

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[86Skier]

Looking for advice on power & ground distribution blocks. Any brand/model better than the other?

Starting in on this, figured I might as well first clean-up the power/ground cables, before I even start in on the coax/etc, so I was looking at a few from WetSounds and Audio Pipe, but not sold on anything specific. Recommendations?

I'd like to pull out all existing power/ground cable and route new cables through blocks (1 in - 4 out) with a single run to each direct from the battery switch.

Thinking I need 1/0 AWG Cables to the blocks, then 4 AWG to each amp... sound right? Best source for marine cable?